SUBJECT: 504 plans DATE:96-04-29 00:08:31 EST FROM: Jim fou
Is there a time limit that schools have to get a 504 plan written and implemented?. My son's school acknowledges that he is elgible but is taking months to get it in place. The principal's excuse is that they don't have anyone to do it and he is trying to oversee it and is very busy. Also, is private tutoring ever covered under 504? My son is elgible for spec. ed. based on his test scores but has never been in it (he is dyslexic). He has made it through school with the help of private tutors paid by us. Now that he is in high school he needs more help and we can't afford several tutors to help him succeed in the college prep classes he belongs in. The school seems to think all they want to do for him is give him more time on tests.
Does the school not have to help him just because he isn't in need of remedial classes? They say they don't have services for gifted kids who because of a LD are struggling to get B's and C's in classes like Chemistry & Trig
SUBJECT: Re:504 plans DATE:96-04-29 14:44:01 EST FROM: Socadream
If your son is eligable for spec. ed , then get him in it and all the issues can be discussed at an IEP, what ever services are needed. 504's can also include services, if needed. Make sure you understand what 504 is for, read it. You need to do some homework and educate yourself about your son's disability and what he needs. Don't count on an over-burdened system to do it for you. You may also want to hook up with a Learning Disability Association Chapter in your area. Call information for the number, if they don't have it ask for the "800" operator for the national number and they will be able to refer you. LDA has alot of info for you. Good luck!!
SUBJECT: All Children Belong Teleconf DATE:96-04-30 11:28:31 EST FROM: ALauritzen
All Children Belong National Teleconference Invitation FROM: Carl T. Cameron, Teleconference Producer
Emily McWhorter, Teleconference Assistant
We would like to invite you to participate in our upcoming All Children Belong video teleconference planned for May 21, 1996. There will be no cost to downlink sites of this fun and exciting event.
What is "All Children Belong"?
All Children Belong is a project of the National Parent Network on Disabilities (NPND) and the New Jersey Statewide Parent Advocacy Network (SPAN). It was conceived as a vehicle to bring the concept of supported inclusive education to the forefront of the educational reform movement. The goal of this project is to provide training and resources to parents of children with disabilities that is focused on community based empowerment.
What is the All Children Belong Teleconference?
This teleconference, one of a series of activities of All Children Belong, is being produced by Inclusion Incorporated, under the direction of the National Parent Network on Disabilities and SPAN of New Jersey. The video teleconference will originate in Washington, DC on May 21, 1996, and will be broadcast by satellite throughout the US to sites located at universities, public schools, hotels or other public or private teleconference sites. Each site, usually called a downlink site, will be assisted by the producers of the All Children Belong Teleconference in arranging a downlink location and the technical coordination required to conduct a teleconference.
The downlink site should be able to view the teleconference and ask questions of the teleconference presenters using a one way video/ two way audio connection. Each site will receive the teleconference from a satellite transmission and will be connected by telephone hookup to the originating site in order to provide two way communications with all participants.
What if I don't know anything about teleconferences?
This is not a problem. We will provide complete technical support to those interested in participating. It is not nearly as difficult as you might think. The main responsibilities of the site coordinator are *Act as the contact person between the teleconference producers and the sponsoring organization.
*Assist in selecting a site and coordination with technical staff in studio or conference center. (Remember, we will help you with any technical aspects you may not understand.)
*Assist in selecting the participants at the downlink site and assist in providing local and regional promotion of the event. *Distribute materials to conference participants. Fifteen complete sets of training materials will be provided to you by All Children Belong. *Either act as a local moderator or assist in selecting a moderator for the teleconference.
If you would like to participate, or just want more information, please contact Emily McWhorter by phone at (703)684-6763, by fax at (703)836-1232, or by e-mail at npnd@cs.com .
Thank you, and we hope you can join us for this exciting event!
SUBJECT: 504 ACCOMODATIONS DATE:96-05-02 12:06:15 EST FROM: Tlyn823
My son is a third grade student who has been diagnosed with dyslexia. We had him tested for special education services and we were told that he did not qualify. His test scores in reading and writing were at 1.9 (testing was done at 3.2) and his psycological tests revealed a much higher than average IQ. He was denied special ed services because he is achieving in the classroom. He IS receiving A's and B's in school, mostly because he learns well through class discussion and the teacher tends to grade on progress made. Textbooks are read in class, then the material is discussed. We have provided tutoring for 2 hours a week using the Orton Gillingham method and we have worked with him each night. His teacher now believes that he is reading at 2.5. We are concerned about his progress in 4th grade when he will be required to read the textbooks himself. We have asked for a section 504 meeting to discuss possible accomodations for the next school year. The school administrators haven't been cooperative about any type of accomodation thus far and the school refuses to acknowledge the benefit he has received from the tutoring.. Can we request that the tutoring be continued at the school's expense? Can we expect to be assigned to the teacher that we request? He needs additional help in writing skills as well as reading. What are reasonable requests? We would appreciate any help anyone can give us.
Thanks!
SUBJECT: L.D. & Law School Admission DATE:96-05-04 20:32:57 EDT FROM: AVrondissi
Does anyone have any information about L.D. and applying to law school? After being diagnosed with L.D. in June, 1995, I was able to take the LSAT with accomodation. I have taken it twice since being diagnosed; the first time I scored 145 and the second ocassion I scored 146. Before I forget, let me add that I have a 3.33 GPA and I plan to graduate with a 3.50 GPA by this summer. Anyway, although my LSAT scores are far from great (40%), I thought that given a solid GPA, which I achieved before being diagnosed with L.D., and coupled with the fact that I'm a mature student with relevant work experience, I would try to apply to a few schools. Consequently, I applied to 9 law schools which range in degree of competitiveness. Unfortunatly, I have been rejected by 6 so far, and I'm not anticipating that the remaing law schools are going to be the bearers of good news, either. What's more dissapointing is that a number of schools that I had applied to had "Special Admission Program's" (SAP's); furthermore, most of the institutions that featured SAP's advertised that they try to aggresivley recruit people that are underrepresented in the legal profession.
I decided to call one institution that rejected me and ascertain what factors led to their decision not to admit me. Futhermore, the person who I spoke to was the Director of Admission's at this institution and when I asked why I didn't qualify for admissions under the SAP the response was: "We expect that with the extended time you received on LSAT, you should have scored higher. The accomodation is supposed to bring L.D. students up to par with everyone else. Therefore, our SAP program does not apply to people who are L.D.." Needless to say, I don't think that I want to attend the school anyway. Therefore, I'm left with the impression that the LSAT scor can determine whether one gains admittance to law school or not. I am resigned to the fact that I will probably have to take this beastly exam again and improve my score, if I want to improve my chance of gaining admittance to an ABA approved law school.
Disappointed, does anyone have any other suggestions? Doesn't hard work and a decent GPA count for anything anymore?
Please E-mail, as I would love to read your suggestions, if anyone has any.
Tony
SUBJECT: Fufoley is desperate.HELP DATE:96-05-05 02:31:57 EST FROM: FUHara
Fufoley is now FUhara & we would prefer you e-mail us at rfiandra@monmouth.com We have been in court for the last 3 days.Very emotional & very draining.I can't believe the LIES that people can say under oath only to protect their own selfish ego.I have contacted the Press,finally,to hear my story,only because I can't take the thought of people having to go through this nonsense.This district knows it has the upper hand with it's fancy attorney & a CST that has been untruthful under oath, and they intimidate parents into doing what they want instead of what the two people who know what is BEST for that child,the PARENTS.
Please help.Igo on the stand on monday.email me at rfiandra@monmouth.com
SUBJECT: Re: FULL INCLUSION DATE:96-05-05 16:54:46 EST FROM: KMccon3966
This sounds like an exceptional school! I am wondering where this school is located? What district, etc.? I am graduating with a degree in Inclusive Education (Spec. Ed. and Elem. Ed) and this sounds very much like what I have been learning about! Wonderful that you have the support to implement this.
Kelly
SUBJECT: Re:504 question? DATE:96-05-13 06:00:57 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I am working on a research project on 504's. I am interested in finding out whether or not your district has a WRITTEN policy/procedure regarding 504's. Although my district services 504 students and writes out plans, we don't have a written policy or procedure. Please respond to whether or not your district has a WRITTEN 504 policy/procedure.>>
This is amazing to me as the federal civil rights law states that the district MUST have a written policy on hand and available for parents to review! By not having that written policy they are in violation of an important civil rights disability law!
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-05-13 06:03:30 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Our state special education department is very uncooperative and doesn't feel like all kids under IDEA should get help. After all, they are just lazy and unmotivated. I have heard that our state 504 person is tough on schools. Do I need to have my child taken out of IDEA to use 504?>>
What you need to do is call the Office Of Civil Rights in your state. The federal laws that say the schools are obligated to provide your child with the education he NEEDS are being ignored. The OCR will be able to give you some guidance as to how to proceed.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-05-13 06:05:44 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Section 504's definition of covered disability is more comprehensive than IDEAs, and thus many kids who aren't covered by IDEA ARE covered by 504. >>
Any child with a diagnosed diability who is not covered under IDEA is covered under 504. 504 is a very siimple, straight-forward law that simply states that the school may not discriminate against individuals with a disability, and that their needs must be met. Period.
SUBJECT: Re:504 question? DATE:96-05-15 16:34:51 EST FROM: WHoyle7789
our district has no "written plan". I, as the 504 chairperson, special ed.chairperson, and school "assistance team" chairperson have the honor of writing our plans. Nobody will give me a written policy manuel. I just have a copy of the law> plus the job of interpreting it. luckily my principal and I see most situations eye-to-eye so have had few difficulties working with parents and teachers on plans.
SUBJECT: private schools and 504 DATE:96-05-17 21:57:41 EST FROM: Maureends
We are currently in a heated discussion over whether the local Catholic school is required to make reasonable accommodations for a child who is classified under 504. In one specific case, the child (5th grade male) has been through the CSE process and was identified as ADD (504 eligible) but not LD. He has been on Ritalin administered through the school since age 5, so this is not a new situation. In spite of an "above average" WISC-R, he is being recommended for in-grade retention because he "doesn't complete assignments and can't get homework in on time." Teachers have refused to provide the parents a list of homework assignments or testing dates, so there is no way parents can help the child keep track of these assignments/tests. (There are no behavior problems; he is attentive and participates in class.) Is there any documentation available that outlines the impact of 504 legislation on private/parochial schools, especially in regard to these relatively minor (e.g., tell the parents what the homework is, notify parents of when tests are scheduled, modify penalties for late assignments) accommodations. Also, are there any suggestions as to the effectiveness of in-grade retention if the repeated year will be conducted in the same manner? Thanks!!!
SUBJECT: Re:504 question? DATE:96-05-18 08:30:32 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<our district has no "written plan". I, as the 504 chairperson, special ed.chairperson, and school "assistance team" chairperson have the honor of writing our plans. Nobody will give me a written policy manuel. I just have a copy of the law> plus the job of interpreting it. luckily my principal and I see most situations eye-to-eye so have had few difficulties working with parents and teachers on plans.>>
Sorry, gang - but if you do not have a written plan, and a parent requests a copy of it (which you will no be able to provide) then that parent can complain to the Office of Civil Rights and you will be found out of compliance with a major federal civil rights laws. You are OBLIGATED to have a written plan on file and available to each and every taxpayer who requests a copy.
Get with it!
SUBJECT: Re:private schools and 504 DATE:96-05-18 08:36:11 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Is there any documentation available that outlines the impact of 504 legislation on private/parochial schools, especially in regard to these relatively minor (e.g., tell the parents what the homework is, notify parents of when tests are scheduled, modify penalties for late assignments) accommodations. Also, are there any suggestions as to the effectiveness of in-grade retention if the repeated year will be conducted in the same manner?>>
Parochial schools are specifically exempt from any and all special education and disability laws, unless, for some reason, they receive funding from a source that is public (taxpayer funded).
A child in a parochial school may still be able to receive services from the public school system, but at the public school system's schedule and convenience.
Private non-religious schools are obligated to meet a disabled student's under the American's with Disabilities Act, Title III.
Maybe the parents can work intensely with the child to develop home-taught organizational skills that will support the regular use of an assignment book.
I would also recommend that the parents get a book entitled: Taming the Dragons: Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setley, M. Sp. E. The book has very good and easy to understand descriptions of what learning difficulties are, and excellent, easy to use lists of tips that parents can work on at home.
Good luck.
SUBJECT: 504 Procedures DATE:96-05-22 22:53:29 EST FROM: MEL1822
My son is ADHD and gifted. He is in 1st grade but in a combo class w/2nd graders for his excelled learning (our school does not have a gifted program for grades below 3rd). Prior to my meeting with his principal and sp. ed. coord. for our district, the principal, his teacher, guidance counselor, nurse, phys. ed. teacher and sp. ed. coordinator all met to discuss my son, his curriculum and possible solutions/modifications for classroom, education, etc. Please bear in mind that my son has never had an IEP nor have they requested to do so. (which is why I demanded to meet with the principal and sp.ed.coord. to discuss and implement)
Is it or is it not against the law that this "meeting of the minds" took place to discuss the above mentioned topics concerning my son and his educational rights without me even being informed prior to their meeting? Don't I have a right to be present? Especially when we have had our son independently evaluated since age 2 1/2 by (3) specialists (which the school has copies of all medical evaluations on file declaring him to be ADHD with an exceedingly above average IQ).
This doesn't seem fair to me. Before I make any real waves or one big tidal wave, I want to be sure...can anyone advise?
Please e-mail me at MEL1822@aol or MSN - your help will be much appreciated. :)
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-24 14:20:16 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Is it or is it not against the law that this "meeting of the minds" took place to discuss the above mentioned topics concerning my son and his educational rights without me even being informed prior to their meeting?"
No. They have to put their heads together prior to meeting with you. Part of the IEP law requires that they try to find non-special education solutions where possible, and this kind of meeting is the first step.
Ask what ideas they came up with, and ask how you can help. Make sure they have any current private reports you have (if you're willing to share them.)
If they decided not to test him and you disagree with that decision, you can appeal.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-25 07:23:13 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Is it or is it not against the law that this "meeting of the minds" took place to discuss the above mentioned topics concerning my son and his educational rights without me even being informed prior to their meeting?
Don't I have a right to be present? Especially when we have had our son independently evaluated since age 2 1/2 by (3) specialists (which the school has copies of all medical evaluations on file declaring him to be ADHD with an exceedingly above average IQ).>>
It depends. If these was a meeting to formulate a list of accommodations and develop your son's IEP, then yes - it is a violation of your rights (and your childs) because you have the right to not only be present but to be involved in developing the IEP. If they did develop an IEP, then asked you to sign it - you do NOT have to sign that you agree. But, if you disagree you must write "I disagree" and sign that you disagree. At that point they have 10 business days to reconvene another IEP meeting to work on the accommodations WITH you. If you don't sign it at all, then it becomes effective within about 14 days. Not signing only allows a delay in the implementation, the a prohibition.
If that meeting was official, and it was what school's call a child study team meeting where they discuss pre-liminary information and from that point make recommendations that the child have an IEP under either IDEA or 504, then, no - you do not necessarily get to be present...but you do have a right to know what they meeting was about, and what the outcomes were.
If the meeting was informal, it probably shouldn't have taken place at all without your presence or knowledge.
And, it is not only the right and responsibility of the school to request an IEP meeting or evaluation. As a parent you can request an IEP meeting ANY time you think it is necessary - either to get the initial ball rolling, or once your child has a plan, then to make amendents whenever it is apparant that changes need to be made.
ALWAYS PUT YOUR REQUEST IN WRITING, and keep copies of all correspondence in a 3-ring binder at home. Should you ever need the documentation because of compliance problems you won't have much to back you up without the documentation.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-26 14:39:39 EST FROM: MarRigby
I just found out the other day that there needs to be a list of accomodations for 504 students-including fire drill procedures, field trip procedures, testing prodedures, but there need not be an IEP. IEPs are for students who are receiving Special Education services, whether it be services from the Speech and Language clinician, social work services, Resource/Full-time Special Ed. students. There is a form that needs to be filled out by staff working with the 504 student. Testing modifications can be made, including untimed testing, reading questions to student etc. But it all has to be documented. I just learned all this this past week. Previously, we had been doing IEPs for OT/PT students, but now we do the 504 form instead.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-05-26 21:05:25 EST FROM: Justintrix
It depends on the nature of her disabillity as to whether or not she could have tests read to her
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-05-26 21:08:31 EST FROM: Justintrix
I'm confused as to why the child who has been absent for 1/2 year and now has TBI has not been evaluated for special education. According to 504, if a child has a condition that substantially limits learning, he or she would be eligible for services. But this same child would also be eligible for special education/ home instruction.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-05-26 21:10:55 EST FROM: Justintrix
I don't believe that they can receive resource room services, and even if they can many districts might not provide it due to the reimbursement factor
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-05-26 21:12:25 EST FROM: Justintrix
Is the child who moved to Tenn. still classified as Special Education?
SUBJECT: Re: 504 Procedures DATE:96-05-26 21:18:49 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I just found out the other day that there needs to be a list of accomodations for 504 students-including fire drill procedures, field trip procedures, testing prodedures, but there need not be an IEP. IEPs are for students who are receiving Special Education services, whether it be services from the Speech and Language clinician, social work services, Resource/Full-time Special Ed. students. There is a form that needs to be filled out by staff working with the 504 student. Testing modifications can be made, including untimed testing, reading questions to student etc. But it all has to be documented. I just learned all this this past week. Previously, we had been doing IEPs for OT/PT students, but now we do the 504 form instead.>>
The 504/IDEA stuff is really confusing. The basic difference between the two laws is that IDEA is written to apply to specific disabilities, comes with a set of regulations governing how a child's IEP is written and supervised, etc, and specific steps for due process.
The 504 is a very general disabilities law that says the students needs must be met. There are no regulations from the federal government that the district must follow (like there is with the IDEA). However, it does say that each district must devise and make available it's 504 policy and plan implementation, which must be in compliance with the original law. And, special education services can be provided under 504 - if it is what is needed to meet the childs' needs. Some districts opt to parallel the regulations (more or less) of the IDEA, up to and including an IEP.
Though the IDEA says that an IEP (Individual Education Plan) must be drafted with the input of parents and others (it spells out who), the 504 simply speaks of accommodations.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-27 23:37:37 EST FROM: MarRigby
As I understand it, 504 students receive absolutely no Special Ed. services. IDEA students are entitled to Sp. Ed. services and require that an IEP be written, and due process is followed. 504 is written to prevent discrimination of the handicapped student and worker. For instance, if for any reason at all that the 504 physically handicapped student is unable to go on a school field trip, for lack of proper transportation arrangements or because the school elevator broke, then no one in his grade or class will go on this field trip!
No kidding! The elevator was out of service, but unfortunately no one was aware of that particular regulation. Our sixth grader was left back in school very upset, while the rest of the group went to the concert! But, now that we all know, this regulation, it will be law!
The staff/administrators are responsible for making sure the 504 student is able to participate in all activities and extra-curricular activities in the school. Adaptations must be made.
And I also found out, though it was never pursued, that I may be entitled to transportation to meetings outside the school because I am ineligible to get a driver's license due to insufficient vision. Does anyone know if this is a possibility?
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-28 09:53:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<As I understand it, 504 students receive absolutely no Special Ed. services. IDEA students are entitled to Sp. Ed. services and require that an IEP be written, and due process is followed. >>
This is a common misperseption held by many school administrators and parents. The truth is that the main difference between the two laws is that IDEA (Individiduals with Disabilities Education Act) is "categorical" (spells out specific disabilities), and has a clearly stated and elaborate set of regulations (including a "formula" for writing an IEP so that includes goals, timetables, and specific implementation plans), and provides the schools with some financial compensation for providing the required support of the student. Under IDEA parents can request a hearing if they disagree with a school's recommendations for their child. Under IDEA the hearing officer is independent of the school system, and selected at random.
Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1975 is a non-categorical (if you are impaired, you qualify and are protected) anti-discimination civil rights law.
It has almost no regulations and is dependent upon the local education agency deciding and interpreting what rules and procedures should be (though they MAY NOT re-interprete the definition of what qualifies one as disabled). There is no extra $ compensation to the schools for providing services. Services under the 504 can include special education instruction if that is what is needed for an impaired child to access the education the school offers to other non-impaired students. Under 504 parents can request a hearing if they disagree with the recommendations of the school, but the hearing officer is selected by the school.
The ADA (American's with Disabilities Act) is the federal civil rights disability law that really gets into the nitty-gritty about the physical environment and the removal of barriers for disabled individuals. Think of barriers in this sense as not only steps to people in wheelchairs, but barriers to students with the "invisible disabilities."
For instance, a person unable to walk, and in a wheelchair clearly needs a ramp or some other means for ascending those stairs to get into the school in order to receive the instruction in the classroom. A student with Attention Deficit Disorder (a pervasive, chronic disability) may need a quiet classroom as the "ramp" to fully receive the education the school offers.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-28 09:58:22 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<For instance, if for any reason at all that the 504 physically handicapped student is unable to go on a school field trip, for lack of proper transportation arrangements or because the school elevator broke, then no one in his grade or class will go on this field trip! >>
This is a new interpretation to me. I can see the logic in that if the disabled child could not go because of a physical barriers that could not be removed then it would be discriminatory if the class went without the child. However, I do not understand how this is non-discriminatory to the other students. Nor do I see how this can have a positive impact on peer relationships or relationships with teachers. Nor, do I understand why the student could be carried to where he/she needed to go. If the school elevator broke, then how did the student get to where they were where they couldn't leave without the school elevator. The law does not say that an elevator must be made available. In our school they simply decided to have all of a physically disabled student's classes taught on the first floor - thus accessible to her. I am a bit confused about what happened, why it couldn't be solved and of the interpretation of the 504 law.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-28 19:25:20 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Dear Ratatat,
I believe the person's interpretation of what happens if there are no accommodations for the disabled student is correct. A lawyer who specialized in working with parents of ADHD and IDEA students spoke to our school. She said that if the special youngster could not go on the trip, no one could go on the trip. At least, that was her interpretation.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-29 18:43:40 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
Unfortunately, the 6th grade classes are on the third floor of the building. Yes, he could have been carried downstairs, and gone on this trip, but it was this child's pride and dignity that interfered.
Fortunately, for this student, the 7th and 8th grade academic classes are on the main floor of the building, and there is only one class that is held on another floor. We do have a school in our system with many physically handicapped students who are well mainstreamed in their classes, but it is not in his district, and he is definitely entitled to attend a school in his district.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-05-29 23:14:05 EST FROM: MButts2447
DO YOU FEEL TEACHER ARE REALLY TRAINED OR BEING TRAINED TO PROVIDE FOR ACCOMODATIONS FOR STUDENTS WITH ADHD?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-05-30 11:18:25 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Whether or not teachers are being trained to work with the ADHD student depends on which school district they are in. Some districts do a fine job any time they know their teachers must learn something new. Other districts do virtually nothing. They might provide one inservice and say that they have met their obligations.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-05-30 17:28:58 EST FROM: SusanS29
"For instance, if for any reason at all that the 504 physically handicapped student is unable to go on a school field trip, for lack of proper transportation arrangements or because the school elevator broke, then no one in his grade or class will go on this field trip! "
Absolutely. What would they have done for that child had there been a fire? They need a backup system, even if it's adults assigned to carry the child in his chair down the stairs.
There is no excuse for excluding a child with a disability from a field trip just based on a physical disability.
SUBJECT: Re:MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-05-30 20:06:22 EST FROM: RhoLaren
I was not saying that the policy was a bad one. It seemed, though, that you were not aware that the policy existed in that manner. Maybe I misread.
SUBJECT: Re:MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-05-31 19:54:41 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I was not saying that the policy was a bad one. It seemed, though, that you were not aware that the policy existed in that manner. Maybe I misread. "
Rho-can't tell what you're referring to -- ???
SUBJECT: Re:MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-06-01 09:16:53 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Sorry, Susan
I said that if the special ed. child could not go on a field trip, no one could go. It seemed that your following post indicated that I thought the policy was a bad one. I don't, just wanted to clarify the issue of accommodations. Sometimes it is hard to keep trains of thought straight on these boards. :)
SUBJECT: Re:504 Procedures DATE:96-06-01 10:00:47 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Fortunately, for this student, the 7th and 8th grade academic classes are on the main floor of the building, and there is only one class that is held on another floor. We do have a school in our system with many physically handicapped students who are well mainstreamed in their classes, but it is not in his district, and he is definitely entitled to attend a school in his district.>>
The child that I am thinking about at our local school (which had no elevator) attending all her classes on the first floor. Because they school is required to accommodate her they had to re-assign all of her grade level classes so that she could access them. One year the only exception was a laboratory science class (they couldn't relocate the lab downstairs). They had a video-relay for her with an audio system so she could attend and participate in the class while it was going on. Later, she could watch the video while conducting the lab with a special set up devised for her on the first floor. Of course, the labs were adjusted to meet the physical limitations of the space. This child has a tiger for a mother, as you can imagine. She had to drag the school kicking and screaming into the 1990's.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-01 10:02:10 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Other districts do virtually nothing. They might provide one inservice and say that they have met their obligations.>>
Actually, I have learned from doing a lot of review of the regulations that the schools do have an affirmative obligation to make sure the teachers are informed about teaching childrenw with ADD.
SUBJECT: 504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-01 12:10:40 EST FROM: ALUCINDA
I am looking for a sample 504 policy. Can anyone help?
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-01 13:11:28 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat-
While you are correct that school systems have an obligation to inform teachers about working with the ADHD student, I am saying that some fulfill that obligation well, and some do the minimal. They provide just enough information so that they can paper trail their responsibilities and satisfy the letter of the law. It stinks, but it happens. What we need to do is not deny what is happening, but work toward correcting the flaws.
SUBJECT: Re: MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-06-01 13:32:03 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I said that if the special ed. child could not go on a field trip, no one could go. It seemed that your following post indicated that I thought the policy was a bad one. "
No, I think that was the right decision. Non-discrimination doesn't mean "only when it's convenient" or "only when we have taken the trouble to figure out how to do it."
I am truly concerned about what they would have done in case of a fire.
To give an example: last week as a senior "prank," someone set off five smoke bombs at my daughter's high school. Everyone had to leave the building, and one girl was taken to the hospital. She was on the second floor, on crutches because of a broken leg, and couldn't get out until she had inhaled potentially-dangerous levels of the fumes.
These issues have the potential to affect everyone.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-01 13:34:20 EST FROM: SusanS29
"While you are correct that school systems have an obligation to inform teachers about working with the ADHD student, I am saying that some fulfill that obligation well, and some do the minimal."
Yes, Rho-that's just the problem.
And with a problem as complex as ADD, a little superficial information can be worse than none at all-because the teachers and administrators may then think they're actually well-informed.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-01 15:03:22 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Thank you for your response, Susan. I really did not think we were that far apart. You know what should be done which is evident from your posts. Unfortunately, in too many cases, the correct things are not being done. That is what I hear from many regular education, and special education teachers. Keep it up. We'll get there, yet. :)
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-06-03 21:16:07 EST FROM: BOB833
From my experience 504 plans can consist of testing modifications only. Also students previously classified can also maintain testing modifications even after declassified without a 504 plan. This is also true for students who have graduated. If at the time of graduation the testing modifications are left on the IEP, the students are eligible for the same test mods in post graduate work.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-06-03 21:20:36 EST FROM: BOB833
Our district has supplied home tutoring under 504 for a student who has a chronic illness. Accomodations are made for her when attending school and also when she is unable to attend school. Eligibility is determined by the presence of a disability which does not necessarily require spec. ed. but requires accomodations to participate in their education.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-03 21:21:24 EST FROM: Dc3Tr6
While working out the flaws in the 504 system, what can we do about those that take advantage of the system and the students that are NOT willing to do their part. I have had many 504's that indeed need special things BUT I have had almost as many merely USE 504 as an excuse with parental backing. It makes it very hard for me to keep on trying in good faith.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-03 21:30:31 EST FROM: BOB833
If your child's behavior is related to his disability he has protection. The school district must hold a Nexus meeting to determine if his behavior is related to his disability. It is true that after 10 suspensions an alternative/more restrictive placement must be explored but they can not place him without providing a free and appropriate public education (FAPE) in the least restrictive environment (LRE). Placing a student in a "lock up" does not meet FAPE or LRE.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-03 22:02:53 EST FROM: MarRigby
We just had a fantastic inservice program on ADHD! It was given by a professor at UConn. It was a 2-parter, 2 hours each. We all learned a great deal.
Now it seems that the number of ADHD students are rapidly increasing!
The student that I was referring to does get carried down for fire drills. There is a policy in place. He has no choice in that. Also, I believe that there is a "safe room" approved by the fire department on the third floor of the building where his classroom is located.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-06-05 14:56:58 EST FROM: SusanS29
"From my experience 504 plans can consist of testing modifications only."
Oh... not at all! I would recommend your school get a copy of the book from Hawthorne Educational Services that lists common learning problems related to ADD.
Each problem is at the head of a page, followed by a list (sometimes more than 70) possible interventions.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-05 15:02:49 EST FROM: SusanS29
""While working out the flaws in the 504 system, what can we do about those that take advantage of the system and the students that are NOT willing to do their part."
There has to be some justification for a 504 plan. Determination for eligibility for a 504 can't be made by parents, and it can't be made by teachers. It requires a solid diagnosis (states and districts will vary on what those requirements are).
Once that decision's been made, it's not appropriate for a teacher to assume that the students "aren't willing" to do their part. Unfortunately, many students with ADD will appear that way to some teachers (esp. those with little real understanding of the impact of ADD on a student's school efforts). Also it's easy to leap to that conclusion when the student has a learning disability, esp. at the junior or senior high level.
That's the whole point of the diagnostic process-to eliminate that possibility.
For each student truly not willing to do his or her part there are probably ten who want desperately to do the right thing and are trying (inefficiently and ineffectively) -- ten times harder than most other students without any difficulty.
I know; I was one of those students labeled "extremely bright" by some teachers and as "not trying" by others. One of those teachers who couldn't see how hard I was trying blackballed me from the Honor Society (she apologized to me later) and nearly kept me from graduating from high school.
By graduate school I had a 3.95 gpa, and I have since written a book. I would have benefitted tremendously from a few accommodations in a few courses.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-05 15:04:03 EST FROM: SusanS29
"It is true that after 10 suspensions an alternative/more restrictive placement must be explored..."
Actually, smart school districts look at what needs to be done before ten days of suspension have accumulated. That way by the time they're to ten days they aren't cut short with no options.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-05 15:05:09 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Now it seems that the number of ADHD students are rapidly increasing!"
The numbers aren't increasing, but the number diagnosed is increasing. Kids like me (maybe) no longer get overlooked.
SUBJECT: Re:504 inArkansas DATE:96-06-06 00:26:50 EST FROM: Brad2444
Have son with autism,requested Due Process Hearing, Arkansas Dept of Education assigned case to hearing officer, with instructions to determine if we have a "viable case",. Hearing officer has ordered us to present our case to him and school district to allow district to respond before he will decide if we have a "viable case". If hearing officer decides we have a "viable case" the 45 day clock will start at that time, if not we will be denied Due Process. Help.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-08 07:15:00 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< They provide just enough information so that they can paper trail their responsibilities and satisfy the letter of the law. It stinks, but it happens. What we need to do is not deny what is happening, but work toward correcting the flaws.>>
Yes, I do know that it happens. And I think that when it does it more than stinks. The lack of understanding about how to help these children often has a negative impact on them that can last a lifetime. And, conversely - have the knowledge (and using it) about how to help theese children can have an amazing positive impact on them that can last a life time.
One of my favorite quotes is "Teachers Touch the Future."
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-06-08 07:18:10 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Eligibility is determined by the presence of a disability which does not necessarily require spec. ed. but requires accomodations to participate in their education.>>
Bob, EXACTLY. This is the only "qualifier" required to covered under 504. And, since the obligation of the schools is to meet the child's needs, a 504 plan can actually include special education services.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-08 07:20:10 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I have had many 504's that indeed need special things BUT I have had almost as many merely USE 504 as an excuse with parental backing. It makes it very hard for me to keep on trying in good faith.>>
If the child doesn't have a real disability, then how can they be "using" 504 as an excuse? More often I see kids who have a real disability and real needs NOT receiving the help they should be receiving.
SUBJECT: Re:504 inArkansas DATE:96-06-08 07:26:59 EST FROM: Ratatat
<>Hearing officer has ordered us to present our case to him and school district to allow district to respond before he will decide if we have a "viable case". If hearing officer decides we have a "viable case" the 45 day clock will start at that time, if not we will be denied Due Process. Help.>>
The hearing officer is acting as a "mediator" to objectively (hopefully) review the documents that you have and that the school. If your child has a solid diagnosis of autism your documents will show that - and by federal law your child must receive services. If, for some reason, the hearing officer decides that is not the case, you can still appeal "one more layer" up by contacting the Office of Civil Rights for a ruling.
One word of advise. From some of my readings I have learned that sometimes it can really help if the paperwork from the diagnosing physician refers directly to the criteria in the DSM-IV when reporting on the child's disability. You might make sure your report is worded this way, and if not, ask the doctor to re-draft it so that it does.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-08 10:23:49 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Unfortunately, in too many cases, the correct things are not being done. "
I know, Rho, I know... :/
One of the GREAT things about this is the advent of AOL and the Internet. For the first time parents can gather information from across the country.
I'm working via e-mail with a parent right now whose son's rights have been egregiously violated. I and another AOL member have been able to steer her through the system, help her find local support (crucial)... and they are, finally, going to write an IEP for this student on Wednesday-after months of battle.
I don't think she would ever have found out that her school district was flying by the seat of its pants if she hadn't bought a modem. :)
SUBJECT: Re: 504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-09 14:53:07 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Susan29-
I think we are seeing eye to eye on many things. When a teacher brings up some problems we need to address them as you have done. Thank you.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-10 00:42:33 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
I think that you are mistaken when you say that a child under 504 can receive Special Ed. services. Unless you are referring to related services such as Speech and Language, Occupational and/or Physical Therapy, you are wrong. If a student qualifies for Special Ed. services then he is under the rules and regulations that cover IDEA. These students do not come under 504. And 504 students in no way come under IDEA. Before they can do that, they have to go through all the procedures leading up to and including the PPT to decide eligibility. At least that's how the policy is written in our city.The one thing we all seem to agree on is the fact that all children are entitled to the best education possible.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-12 22:27:34 EST FROM: SusanS29
Thanks, Rho.
I think sometimes you and I do look at things differently, but that's what's great about it. We would never have discussed it without AOL. Parents or other people can come in and hear what may be two entirely different views- but perhaps have never heard either view before.
Eventually it leads to better education, and I know we share that goal.
:)
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-12 22:28:35 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I think that you are mistaken when you say that a child under 504 can receive Special Ed. services. "
Actually I think she is right about that...
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-16 08:28:51 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I think that you are mistaken when you say that a child under 504 can receive Special Ed. services. >>
Nope, I am not mistaken. If you look at the Memorandum of 1991 by the Dept. of Ed. and the OCR it very clearly states the under 504 students may receive special education services too.
Generally, if the student needs a whole program of only special education then that obligation is met through IDEA.
However, in some cases there are students who only need some extra resource support in one area or another. And, under 504 they are to receive it!
According to the Memorandum of 1991, it says: "A free and appropriate public education, under Section 504, consists of regular or special education and related aids and services that are designed to meet the individual student's needs and based on adherence to the regulator requirements on educational setting, evaluation, placement, and procedural safeguards. A student may be handicapped within the meaning of Section 504, and therefore entitled to regular or special education and related aids and services under the Section 504 regulation, even though the student may not be eligible for special education and related services under Part B."
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-16 10:26:19 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
**I think that you are mistaken when you say that a child under 504 can receive Special Ed. services. **
Actually, Ratatat is right on here with her reply to your post.
In the 504 Policy and Procedure Manuel that I have for our school district, it states very clearly under a Comparison of IDEA and Section 504, the following:
COMPONENT: Special Education vs. Regular Education
IDEA: A student is only eligible to receive IDEA services if the multidiciplinary team determines that the student has a disability under one of the 13 qualifying conditions and requires special education.
SECTION 504: A student is eligible as long as s/he meeets the definition of a person with a qualifying condition; i.e., currently has or has had a physical or mental impairment which substantially limits a major life activity, or is regarded as handicapped by others. The student is not required to qualify for special education in order to be serviced.
Just this past week, our son, is the first to have a written 504 plan without being covered under IDEA in the district in which we live. One of the accommodations he will receive is working in a resource room to help him with study and organizational skills. He is entitled to this because of the way the 1991 Memorandum reads which Ratatat posted very clearly in the previous message.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-16 11:12:40 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat:
Per usual, you are on target. Are you aware that many school districts are not abiding by that directive? And that in inservice training we are told (or led to believe) the opposite? It is so important that people such as you are knowledgeable about what is actually in the law to communicate it to those of us who have no easy access to copies of it - the regular education teacher who is told by the powers that be what is contained.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-16 19:32:58 EST FROM: OTSusan961
SUSAN,
HERE IN TN WE HAVE STRICT SPECIFIC LAWS AND IF YOU NEED HELP WITH ANY INFORMATION ABOUT THOSE LAWS WE HAVE ADVOCATES ALSO..YOU MAY E-MAIL ME AT OTSUSAN961, IF I CAN BE OF HELP TO YOU WITH CONNECITNG UP WITH THE RESOURCES.
I AM IN WEST TENNESSEE, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE LEST ORGANIZED OF THE STATE
AREAS..GOOD-LUCK TO YOU
SUSAN E.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-16 20:13:28 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Are you aware that many school districts are not abiding by that directive? And that in inservice training we are told (or led to believe) the opposite? >>
Yes, I am very aware that many school districts are not abiding by the directive - deliberately so. And, I do know that teachers can become pawns to some districts desires to keep ALL special ed under IDEA only because there is money connected.
What I don't understand it that it is so easy to get the right information, and cheap. If a teacher really wants to know, or suspects that what they are being told is not quite right, it is not hard to locate a reliable source.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-16 21:09:06 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
**Yes, I am very aware that many school districts are not abiding by the directive - deliberately so. And, I do know that teachers can become pawns to some districts desires to keep ALL special ed under IDEA only because there is money connected.**
Perhaps teacher's, as well as parents, would benefit from the CHADD Educators Manuel. To order call: Caset Associates at 1-800-545-5583. I believe they are $12, inclusive of S/H.
**Are you aware that many school districts are not abiding by that directive? And that in inservice training we are told (or led to believe) the opposite? **
Yes, the teachers at my son's MET were very surprised when the manuels were distributed and they read the law first hand. I must admit their tones changed a bit : )
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-17 08:49:49 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Where do you go to find the information? I am a regular ed teacher and have been actively looking for info for over a year. Since I am newly retired, it has been relatively easy via the computer and people such as you. As a teaching teacher, it was virtually impossible. None of the publications the reg ed teacher reads adequately addresses the situation. None of the workshops the reg ed teacher is offered addresses the situation. I got to attend some interesting workshops because I hounded the guidance counselors and special ed teachers, etc. How in Heck is a teacher to know what is out there if no one ever tells her certain "stuff" exists? If you are in special ed, you may not be aware that much of what you are offered is not readily available to the reg ed teacher. If you are a special ed teacher, do you show your mailings to the rest of the staff? I got them because I persevered. I persevered because of something I found out quite by accident. No, we are not given the info.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-17 18:16:50 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
I guess I stand corrected! But I'm still very confused! :) The policy that I received differs greatly from what you stated.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Elfdreamer's son DATE:96-06-18 00:04:41 EST FROM: HYoung48
I am a resource specialist in California. Remember that regardless of where you go, you have rights under PL 94-142 which states that a student must be served in the least restrictive environment. Has the classroom teacher worked with your son on modifying classroom environment as well as assignments? Has the classroom teacher documented modifications? You have rights, as does your son. I would ask to meet with the principal and ask him by what law can he move your son to what sounds like an alternative educational setting.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-06-18 21:31:11 EST FROM: LINDA HA
504 plans can include accommendations for having tests read or extended time for the tests. You need to specify who will read the test to the child eg guidance counselor, aide, or classroom teacher at a different time.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-19 00:28:52 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Ratatat:
Per usual, you are on target. Are you aware that many school districts are not abiding by that directive?"
Oh, boy IS she, Rho... :)
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-19 09:59:44 EST FROM: RhoLaren
One of the posters on this bb suggested that teachers become aware of the rules and regs in IDEA or 504. If you reread some of the posts on this board, you will notice that teachers are saying that they have been told many different interpretations. They are posting in good faith, quoting what they were told by their school systems. So, when someone says to find out the regs, do you see the problem? Whose interpretation? Where can you get a copy? Most teachers are told only those portions that someone thinks will be needed by these teachers to further someone else's agenda. Do you understand why we are frustrated? Do you understand why the special teachers and the regular ed teachers sometimes snap at each other? We are often tolds different aspects of the regs. Trust me, I know that happens. Remember, I am a nag and question further than most. Gets me into trouble when I try to find out the "truth".
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-20 21:22:08 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Where do you go to find the information? I am a regular ed teacher and have been actively looking for info for over a year. Since I am newly retired, it has been relatively easy via the computer and people such as you.
As a teaching teacher, it was virtually impossible. None of the publications the reg ed teacher reads adequately addresses the situation. None of the workshops the reg ed teacher is offered addresses the situation.>>
Rho, I don't know where you are in the US, but around here (near Detroit), the teacher at my daughter's school could always access the publications on the professional shelves in the school library, the public library and in the teachers' lounge. One of my daughter's teachers (we became very good friends) who actually had a background in cartography became interested in special education issues because of a nephew. This was the time when she first even noticed that the journals were right there in the school's lounge. As she became more interested she decided to find out more, and using the yellow pages located a nearby chapter of the LDA (Learning Disabilities Assoc), and became a member. Through them she started getting more connections to resources. Ultimately, she became an amazing teacher who would, on her own, attend one day workshops during the summer on how kids learn, and specific workshops on aspects of LDs. So, I guess what I am saying is that sometimes one doesn't see what is there even though one is looking until somethine sparks a special something in them to notice it, then search it out. I admit that this was an extraordinary person and I wouldn't expect every teacher to do what she did, but it just shows that it can be done. The nice thing about this teachers was that she inspired several of her colleagues to begin to join her in her summer day-long learning sorjourns. We were lucky to have her. She taught my daughter the last year before she retired.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-20 21:23:54 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I guess I stand corrected! But I'm still very confused! :) The policy that I received differs greatly from what you stated.>>
Where did the policy that you received come from? It is the district's "translation" of the law, or a copy of the law itself? The problem is that when these laws are interpreted they sometimes come out not quite the same way they went in.
What I quoted to you comes directly from the Dept. of Education and the Office of Civil Rights - verbatim!
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-20 21:31:14 EST FROM: Ratatat
>> So, when someone says to find out the regs, do you see the problem? Whose interpretation? Where can you get a copy? >>
FOR FREE, anybody who wants or needs information about the laws concerning disabilities, education, advocacy, etc.... can get it from:
NATIONAL INFORMATION CENTER FOR CHILDREN AND YOUTH WITH DISABILITIES (NICHCY) at 1-800-695-0285.
Just call them, tell them what you are in need of knowing, and they will mail you materials pertinent to your concern, along with resource lists for support groups both Nationally and in your State. They can send you explanations of the laws, as well as copies of the laws themselves. When I first started my expedition to learn about how to help my child, I found an article with NICHCY listed as a footnote. I tracked down their phone number, called them and they sent me the most marvelous materials. From those materials I made more contacts in my State. My State contacts including writing to our Department of Education, Office of Education and was sent an copy fo the law, and explanation of the law, and more resources to contact. In the end I had about 24 inches worth of papers (all current) on various aspects of ADD, schools, parent advocacy, the laws, support groups, etc... That was two years ago, and I'm not sure I've read through it all yet!
SUBJECT: Re: 504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-21 10:38:01 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Dear Ratatat,
As a regular education teacher, I had many other things to look up besides IDEA, in the first place. In the second place, there was no one in my school who perused the materials in the library, guidance dept, etc. more than I. In the third place, most of our information does come from our school system, not primary sources. In the fourth place, I am quite familiar with legal documents and reading them is often no real help. It is how they have been interpreted by court decisions that is the deciding factor. In the fifth place, I have read quite a few of the court decisions pertaining to IDEA because I happen to know a lawyer who just happened to have copies of them. In the sixth place, no teacher can really be expected to devote all his/her time to doing research in all the areas which pertain to us. It should be readily available and not dependent on having one such teacher in the building as you had. In the seventh place, you really do not know how thorough I had been in trying to get info - superintendent, principal, local union, state union, guidance dept, special ed teachers, library, etc. In the eighth place, and this is the most important, let me tell you a little story. In 1986 I heard about inclusion and its implications from a special education teacher from another district who was taking continuing education credits. Went back to my school district and asked everyone (guidance, superintendent, principal, special ed. people, union,etc,) whether or not they knew of this. All said, no. Talked to two special education teachers who are friends of mine and teach in two separate school districts, not mine. They had not heard of what I was talking about. Slowly, because I had talked to so many people, within a few years, I started having people come back to me discussing what they had been alerted to - these were all special ed. teachers, nothing was printed in the journals that most regular ed teachers would have access to in a way that would alert them to changes. Whether or not you want to believe me, I read many journals trying to locate supporting information - virtually nada. By the early nineties, teachers were beginning to become aware that the winds were changing. I have been told by many teachers, special and regular, in and out of my school system, that I told them what was coming years before their own orgainzations told them. Do not ever tell me what my reality is. And do not ever tell me that things are readily available when I know that they are not. I am very good at research and have the courage to ask people questions. And, why should knowledge depend upon one teacher in a school who has a special interest? All that begs the issue of no one tells us in a structured way what we need to know. That is the problem.
SUBJECT: Re:MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-06-27 09:16:11 EST FROM: PT360
Please don't look at the teachers as being the enemy! Contrary to popular belief, we (educators) are looking for the best for the children we service. The easiest and cheapest thing for the school to do would be to let your child go unserviced. But our ethics say that we would be doing a disservice to that child and therefore creating a negative enviroment for the child. Many parents are knowledgeable about the services the schools give and that's great!! However, have you ever spent a few weeks teaching in a "regular" classroom of 25 or in a special class of 6-12 students? Volunteer your time to see what goes on in the day to day teaching world... more than one or two days if possible. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-27 12:49:46 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<In the fifth place, I have read quite a few of the court decisions pertaining to IDEA because I happen to know a lawyer who just happened to have copies of them. >>
Actually, this information is quite readily available today. I understand how important the court cases are in terms of showing the guarantee and reality of the law. In the meantime, one must know what the primary law says before reading a court case and having it make any sense.
<<In the sixth place, no teacher can really be expected to devote all his/her time to doing research in all the areas which pertain to us. It should be readily available and not dependent on having one such teacher in the building as you had. In the seventh place, you really do not know how thorough I had been in trying to get info - superintendent, principal, local union, state union, guidance dept, special ed teachers, library, etc. >>
I think the magic word here is the should. I know that previously I spent a lot of time fretting on the shoulds, woulds, and coulds. I agree with you that the school system should educate the teachers. And, I know that though they should they sometimes just don't. Why? I don't know.
<<In the seventh place, you really do not know how thorough I had been in trying to get info - superintendent, principal, local union, state union, guidance dept, special ed teachers, library, etc. >.
No, I really don't know how much energy you have put into getting information. I made the mistake of assuming your previous question was a rhetorical one.
<<Do not ever tell me what my reality is. And do not ever tell me that things are readily available when I know that they are not. I am very good at research and have the courage to ask people questions.>>
I had no intention of telling you what your reality is, truly. I assumed I was answering a more or less rhetorical question. For me, I have found the information readily available. I had no problem finding the information I sought. Maybe I am just lucky. I know I am skeptical and tenacious, so even when people gave me information, I would continue to look for empirical sources.
<<And, why should knowledge depend upon one teacher in a school who has a special interest? All that begs the issue of no one tells us in a structured way what we need to know. That is the problem.>>
The teacher I mentioned in my earlier post was simply provided as an example of what a person can do....not should do, but can do. And, this was in a private school which, believe me, really doesn't have a clue and since they are not connected to the state boards of education are not being funnelled any information.
I understand the frustration of not being informed in areas that support better teacher, or providing teachers with information that helps them better help their students. I recognize that this is a real problem in many districts...but not all. This is why it is important to have these message boards here, and for parents and teachers to form working partnerships. The more information shared, the less darkness parents and educators will have.
Each person in each school district who have special knowledge can share what they know and can make a difference....now only if they would.
SUBJECT: Book of Lists DATE:96-06-27 13:34:31 EST FROM: Ratatat
In an effort to share new information...over this past weekend I found a book on the shelf of a bookstore which I have just finished scanning. It looks like an amazing resource for any teacher or parents who wants to know more about demystifying special education. I am going recommend that my local public library include it in their borrowing collection. It is:
The Special Education Teacher's Book of Lists by Roger Pierangelo, Ph.D., The Center for Applied Research in Education, West Nyack, NY, 1995. ISBN:
0-87628-876
Here are the subject titles from the table of contents: Foundational Issues for Special Education, Evaluation Measures and Assessment Procedures, Special Education Procedure, Specific Disabilities, Classroom Instruction Techniques for Various Exceptionalities, Parent Education, Definitions, Terminology and Abbreviatrions.
Looks like a goodie!
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policy and Procedures DATE:96-06-27 19:24:40 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat-
The main point is that I was a regular education teacher who had to devote time to doing lessons for the regular students, also. And, the regular teacher is not given the information in any of the journals that he/she would normally read. Nor are workshops offered to us in certain areas when it would be helpful. Why don't you devote time to being an expert on teaching reading, science, social studies, math, language arts, as the regular teacher has to. I bet I know sources in these areas you don't. Do not put me down because my specialty is different from yours. Do not tell me that "information is readily available" when I have been told by special ed. teachers from three school systems that I had knowledge about the current inclusion movement three to four years prior to them hearing about it.
SUBJECT: South Florida DATE:96-06-28 08:56:26 EST FROM: Prezbimbam
Is there anyone who is familiar with South Florida? My daughter is entering 8th grade and is in ICD (in-class direct/inclusion), but they don't offer it 5 days a week...just 2-3. She has a very detailed (but ineffectual) IEP, and I've been fighting the schools for 7 years re: modifications, etc. (auditory processing, no short term memory, horrible with phonics, reading about 3.9-4.2 level). Question...who can take the new testing data and transfer it into a remediation program and assist with appropriate modifications, and then assist me in getting them. I am her advocate...not the school system's favorite person, but my daughter is a happy, socially accepted sweetheart, with a good self esteem and that's critical in these teenage years. She makes the honor roll, which is due to their limiting her bank of what she is required to know, and then they think they can tell me that the modifications are too much since she makes the grade! I have IEP meetings on tape, etc. and also contacted US Civil Rights in the past. Any suggestions would be helpful. If you would, please e-mail to Prezbimbam@aol.com. Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-06-28 11:43:38 EST FROM: Jwmlda
According to a memo from the Office of Special Education Programs, because education is a state responsibility, eligibility for services is not automatically transferred from state to state. That means a receiving state does not have to honor an IEP from another state. The memo does not address the question of 504 accomodations. Usually the receiving state will accept the information from another state, but to be sure, ask for another evaluation.
SUBJECT: Re:South Florida DATE:96-06-28 17:48:48 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Is there anyone who is familiar with South Florida? My daughter is entering 8th grade and is in ICD (in-class direct/inclusion), but they don't offer it 5 days a week...just 2-3. She has a very detailed (but ineffectual) IEP"
The program, and the IEP, must meet her needs, orit's in violation in federal law.
Do you have test scores demonstrating that over years she has not achieved? If you do, then you have some powerful ammunition.
Please post back and let us know.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection DATE:96-06-28 23:58:50 EST FROM: Blitzen9
First, I would inquire about SE parent support groups in the area. Then you need to call an ARD (Admission, Review, and Dismissal Committee) meeting and make sure your child has something in his IEP (Individual Education Plan) that stipulates that he can not be "judged" on the 10 violation rule. If he is labeled Special Ed his IEP should have some guidelines about his behavior and its limits. You need to make sure that they adhere to the LRE (Least Restrictive Environment) ruling for Special Education. The IEP should be worded to protect him. Make friends with the Special Education teacher in that school and other SP parents. They will be your best allies. If you get his IEP to state that he to stay in the classroom unless his behavior endangers other students, (etc.) then it will be illegal for them to put him in a locked facility for minor infraction of the rules. GOOD LUCK
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-07-12 18:00:25 EST FROM: Zoeamos
Students are not eligible to receieve special education under 504... Why is this student not receiving special education with the eligibility afforded under I.D.E.A. with a traumatic brain injury?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-12 20:57:19 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Students are not eligible to receieve special education under 504... >>
I know this is what most people think...but this issue was clarified in a memorandum written by the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights in September of 1991. Children can receive special education, related services and aids under Section 504! It's true.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-13 07:47:48 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Students are not eligible to receieve special education under 504..."
Sorry-not true.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-13 17:22:15 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
**Students are not eligible to receieve special education under 504.**
Sorry ....... but children CAN receive special education and related aids and services if they fall within the definition of a handicapped person. Our district just fought this law......AND THE LAW WON!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-07-13 20:48:54 EST FROM: Joanne1751
your son cannot be removed from his current educational placement unless agreed to by the Sped team. The team is required to determine if the infractions to the school dicipline code are the direct result of his handicapping condition. If the determination is yes, than the discipline code should be modified within his IEP. To remove a student without a team meeting violates sped requlations and places your system in non-compliance. Contact your School's Special Education Office or the State Department of Education for parent rights/due process procedures under IDEA.
SUBJECT: Re: MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-07-13 20:57:54 EST FROM: Joanne1751
The school system may be advocating for a sped mandation because the process and porcedures for implementing and monitoring the modifications are already in place, i.e. your son will not as likely slip through the cracks. 504 is relatively new and therefore uncharted waters within many systems. Another reason could be, that 504 students may not receive federal reimbursement and thus the modifications are in fact more costly to your LEA.
SUBJECT: Re: MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-07-14 15:40:06 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< 504 is relatively new and therefore uncharted waters within many systems. Another reason could be, that 504 students may not receive federal reimbursement and thus the modifications are in fact more costly to your LEA.>>
Actually, 504 is a section of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 - it is almost 25 years old! Because IDEA is so specific and prescriptive in how disabled children are to be education, many people are not familiar with Section 504. Section 504 is a major civil rights law for disabled people. IDEA is just one avenue that can be followed to meet the basic requirements of non-discrimination that are required under 504. Children who's disability does not fit specifically into one of the categories under IDEA yet who are disabled under the definition of the federal rules are protected under Section 504.
You are right however, that there are no "funds" connected with provided services under 504. However, remember that 504 is only applicable in those institutions that are already receiving federal money of any kind. So, if they take the federal money they are, de facto, agreeing to provide services to children with "non-categorical" disabilities under Section 504.
SUBJECT: Re: MeePK,504vsIDEA??? DATE:96-07-14 20:22:02 EST FROM: SusanS29
"<< 504 is relatively new and therefore uncharted waters within many systems. Another reason could be, that 504 students may not receive federal reimbursement and thus the modifications are in fact more costly to your LEA.>>
Actually, 504 is a section of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 - it is almost 25 years old! "
Yes, that's true, but its application in schools is new and uncharted waters to many districts. The fact that it's unfunded makes it extremely threatening to many school districts.
Although 504 predates IDEA, I was teaching special education in 1973, and it didn't even occur to anyone that this law had any pertinence to education.
SUBJECT: 504 or Special Ed DATE:96-07-24 22:10:28 EST FROM: OWINGS80
Hi:
I have a son who has been diagnoised with and unclassified form of skeletal Dysplasia (dwarfism). He has othopedic problems, he's small in stature, he uses a wheel chair for long distance walking, but can walk around room, etc. Most Little People face delays due to there physical condition. He has been classified as multiple handicapped but since he scored low academically aroun 65, the school now wants to take him out of the inclusion program and let him spend two hours a day in an EMH resourse room. I feel that he he made great strides last school year and so did his teacher, specialist, etc. However, he is still delayed. I was told today by a disabilities representative that I should have him reevaluated by an independent agency and that possibly they should consider him as Other Health Impaired since dwarfism is his primary diagnosis all the other conditions result from his medical condition. He was trached at 10 mos. he is now 8 and still has the trach, he may always have it. So speech is delayed and no accomodation were made for that during testing. He uses some sign, some picture board, etc. The rep told me that he should be test by a nuro-phycologist(?) that he/she could probably identify specific learning problems if any. Is there such a creature and how do I find them. She also told me that my son might be better served under 504 instead of or in addition to IDEA. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I need help. I would appreciate any help I can get. Does anyone know of any agency in this area (we live in VA) that is experienced in testing Little People. We have been told about the Kennedy Institute in Baltimore and the Dupont Children's Center, Willmington DE. Does anyone have any experience with these place. Please E-Mail me at OWINGS80.
Thanks,
Loretta
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-25 13:11:43 EST FROM: RUNRNOT
Students with ADD/ADHD disorders only qualify for Special Education services when all 504 efforts have been exhausted. Otherwise they must receive services under 504, and remember, if something doesn't work, then try something else.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-25 20:21:44 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Students with ADD/ADHD disorders only qualify for Special Education services when all 504 efforts have been exhausted. >>
Student with ADD/ADHD can receive special education services under 504. 504 is generally regarded for students who do not need a "full-blown" special education but still need special considerations in the academic and school plan. Some of those children, though they may be in a regular education setting and are receiving special accommodations in the regular classroom may still need extra supports from the special education teachers to specifically remediate certain skill challenges. 504 allows for this.
Not all children with ADD fit into one of the prescribed categories of IDEA, however if their disability (ADD) is interfering with their learning then they are protected under 504 which is a general disabilities civil rights law, and should have an education/support plan written formally under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-28 14:09:44 EST FROM: DSIEL
As I understand it, 504 is for students who do not qualify for special ed.
Am I wrong?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-28 20:48:27 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<As I understand it, 504 is for students who do not qualify for special ed. Am I wrong? >>
504 is for students who are disabled, require supports, but do not qualify under IDEA. IDEA is designed to provide special education and other services to students who fit into the categories of IDEA. If a student is disabled and doesn't fit into one of the prescribed categories, yet their disability significantly interferes with their ability to access the educational program of the school, then they are protected under 504.
In reality, 504 comes "first." IDEA is just one way for 504 requirements to be met!
SUBJECT: HOME/HOSPITAL TUTORING DATE:96-07-28 22:25:32 EST FROM: Mewd1123
I AM INTERESTED IN HEARING FROM ANYONE WHO HAS ENCOUNTERED PROBLEMS WITH PAYMENT FOR HOME OR HOSPITAL INSTRUCTION, PARTICULARLY IF A CHILD HAS GONE TO A DIFFERENT STATE FOR TEMPORARY MEDICAL CARE. HAS THE LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT PAID FOR THE TUTORING IN ANOTHER STATE OR HAS THE OTHER DISTRICT PROVIDED THE TUTORING AND PAID FOR IT? I AM MOST INTERESTED IN KNOWING IF THERE WAS A PROBLEM OVER WHO SHOULD PAY AND HOW AND IF IT WAS RESOLVED.
SUBJECT: Re: HOME/HOSPITAL TUTORING DATE:96-07-29 07:50:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
< I AM MOST INTERESTED IN KNOWING IF THERE WAS A PROBLEM OVER WHO SHOULD PAY AND HOW AND IF IT WAS RESOLVED.>
First, please don't post in all caps...it makes your messages much harder to read. Thanks!
When a child is covered in IDEA and has a written IEP, then whenever their is a "change of venue" of more than 10 days an IEP meeting must be held first to make "official" plans for the change. I would imagine that this should cover hospitalization...I just don't know about when that happens in another state. Perhaps if you call your State's Dept. of Special Education they can tell you what the codes in your state say.
SUBJECT: 504 or IEP? DATE:96-07-31 12:14:05 EST FROM: AlaCoCMA
I have a 7 y.o. son that used to be in Spec. Ed. but now is going to a 2nd grade class with the Resource program. He has a Specific LD, Speech Impairment and some behavioral difficulties and ADHD. There ar a few accomodations that I have seen asked for on some 504 Plans. Do I have to file a 504 Plan to get certain accommodations? Or can I restrucutre his IEP to include them? Also, how much control do I as a parent have over his IEP? We are in California.
Thanks.
Nisha
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-31 18:20:17 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Students with ADD/ADHD disorders only qualify for Special Education services when all 504 efforts have been exhausted. Otherwise they must receive services under 504, and remember, if something doesn't work, then try something else."
That isn't true. Lots of school districts simply classify these students as "Other Health Impaired" and use their special education programs.
There are two laws: IDEA, and section 504. In some cases IDEA will be more appropriate, and in others 504 may be, but the only rule is to do what the child needs. There is no federal law stating which program has to be used.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-07-31 18:21:08 EST FROM: SusanS29
No.
Section 504 applies to people with disabilities. Not everyone who struggles in school has a recognized disability. Being a slow learner, for instance, is just a normal variation, and not a disability.
SUBJECT: Re:504 or IEP? DATE:96-07-31 18:22:50 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Do I have to file a 504 Plan to get certain accommodations? Or can I restrucutre his IEP to include them? Also, how much control do I as a parent have over his IEP? We are in California."
Any accommodations you would put in a 504 can be included in an IEP, often on the "Adaptations and Modifications" page. It usually won't require rewriting the entire IEP, but if that's what's needed, do it.
IEPS can be written more than once a year and must be re-written if that's what's needed.
SUBJECT: Re:504 or IEP? DATE:96-08-01 12:24:49 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Also, how much control do I as a parent have over his IEP?>>
As a parent you are supposed to be considered an equal partner with the schools in the development of your child's IEP. You can make suggestions of accommodations, and you can reject ones that you don't think are appopriate. In the end, if you don't agree with the IEP the school wants, you can disagree with it by writing "I disagree" on the form...and the school then has 10 within which to reconvene and try again. Remember, and IEP meeting is supposed to be a working meeting where the parents and the schools develop appropriate goals and objectives based on the student's level or performance, and the ability of the student.
SUBJECT: 504 COMPUTER DATE:96-08-01 17:06:59 EST FROM: Latinsi
I am mentoring a hearing impaired student. At his last 504 meeting they listed a multimedia computer as one of his modifications. I presume that it will be for home use. Meeting was held in March and still no computer. What can I do to help him obtain the computer?
SUBJECT: Re:504 COMPUTER DATE:96-08-01 18:10:13 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I am mentoring a hearing impaired student. At his last 504 meeting they listed a multimedia computer as one of his modifications. I presume that it will be for home use. Meeting was held in March and still no computer. What can I do to help him obtain the computer?>>
If an accommdation on his offical written 504 has not been fulfilled, then you will need to inform the school that it is time for due process. If you don't already have it, I recommend you ask the school district for a copy of their written 504 policy and procedures. By law they must have on written and available, and in it they must spell out how to proceed to due process. Due process is a grievance procedure when agreed upon accommodations are not being met.
SUBJECT: Re:504 COMPUTER DATE:96-08-02 00:39:08 EST FROM: SusanS29
"At his last 504 meeting they listed a multimedia computer as one of his modifications. I presume that it will be for home use. Meeting was held in March and still no computer. What can I do to help him obtain the computer?"
I wouldn't presume it to be for home use. The school can be obligated to supply needed school equipment but they aren't obligated to stock the home with a computer.
SUBJECT: Re:504 COMPUTER DATE:96-08-04 11:01:38 EST FROM: Emu95
"I wouldn't presume it to be for home use. The school can be obligated to supply needed school equipment but they aren't obligated to stock the home with a computer."
Unless the IEP team determines that the school should provide the student with a computer for home use. Many students have been provided with a computer to use at home per an IEP.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-17 08:35:01 EST FROM: SGould1016
The child cannot receive SPED SERVICES BUT CAN RECEIVE MODIFICATIONS IN THE CLASSROOM.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-08-17 08:39:23 EST FROM: SGould1016
If the child is making effective progress in the classroom and is ADD he is not eligible for Sped services. BUT under 504, he can receive modifications in the classroom, which must be adhered to and is overseen by the principal of your school. If at any time there is a problem, further testing can be administered.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-17 08:46:40 EST FROM: SGould1016
It seems to me that no one "pays" for the 504 plan because it is simply stating that this child needs modifications that the classroom teacher can implement. Like giving 10 spelling words instead of 20 or dividing a paper into four sections or using graph paper for division problems, etc.
SUBJECT: RE: Sped &parochial schools DATE:96-08-17 08:55:39 EST FROM: SGould1016
I am a SPED teacher in a parochial school. I deliver all the services necessary to the child. The school district provides a chairperson to sit on our meetings and to listen to the discussions about the child, who he is unfamilar with. He/she provides the paperwork and signature necessary. My question is, does the public school receive the monies for these children? And shouldnt the parochial school receive some of these monies because they are directly servicing these children???? I would greatly appreciate an answer from someone knowledgable in this area.
Please e-mailk me at SGOULD1019@AOL.COM
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-18 10:07:36 EST FROM: SusanS29
"It seems to me that no one "pays" for the 504 plan because it is simply stating that this child needs modifications that the classroom teacher can implement. Like giving 10 spelling words instead of 20 or dividing a paper into four sections or using graph paper for division problems, etc."
Sometimes it's that simple.
But sometimes it does require extra staff time. For instance, sometimes the guidance counselor will check the child's homework list at the end of the day to make sure he or she has everything needed to finish the homework.
Sometimes it does require a little exptra expense or staff time (and the district pays the staff, of course)... and sometimes it requires a fair amount. What about the child who is dysgraphic because of ADD, but not considered LD-and who needs a laptop?
Those situations are rare. Many school districts don't know what you apparently do know-that most of the time the interventions are simple and either inexpensive or cost nothing at all. They look at the very high "overhead" of special education and assume they will have to fund a huge expensive program.
And they dig their heels in.
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Sped &parochial school DATE:96-08-18 10:09:35 EST FROM: SusanS29
"My question is, does the public school receive the monies for these children?"
No, they don't. I have been that "chairperson" from the public school who went over to the parochial school for an IEP.
The only way the public schools get any money is if that IEP is serviced after school at a public school setting. Then they're providing direct services and they are reimbursed for that. But students in parochial schools are not added to any public special ed teacher's case load, and that's how the money trail is started. If the child is on no public school roll, there's no way the public school gets special ed funds.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-18 21:51:32 EST FROM: Nissan K
I have an 11 year old, diagnosed with ADHD. She has difficulty with Math. Can anyone tell me what I need to do to get the school to allow her to use a calculator. I have tried mulitiplication rap, videos, and she can get them but can't put it to paper. Someone help!
I want to be prepared when school starts next week.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-19 19:19:55 EST FROM: SusanS29
Get that 504 plan WRITTEN DOWN. Once it's written they have to abide by it, just as if it were an IEP.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-19 20:04:35 EST FROM: Mewd1123
I AM INTERESTED IF YOU RECEIVED AN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT TUTORING AND 504? IF SO, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE RESOLUTION? THANK YOU.
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Sped &parochial school DATE:96-08-23 16:30:14 EST FROM: MarRigby
In many instances, the city supplies the Special Ed. Resource teacher to the parochial schools in the same city/county. If this is so, then the city usually supplies funding for materials for that resource room. At least that's the way it is in the city I teach in.
Usually, for initial evaluations, the city in which the student lives, is responsible for either paying for and/or administering the evaluation. This may also be true for continued services-dependent upon the decision at PPTs.
It's also a political situation. As more public school systems are bogged down by dwindling budgets, cities are fighting against supplying any resources, whether it be Pupil Personnel services such as counseling, health services, language/speech/hearing services to any private or parochial schools, and more and more they will win.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:FULL INCLUSION DATE:96-08-27 01:11:19 EST FROM: JEBMunoz
My middle school has eliminated SDCs and placed all IEP students in the mainstreamed resource program. This is my first public school experience, but I am already questioning the benefits of the program for the most challenged students who need to build life skills and need lots of time to do so. I can help them write reasearch papers, but to what end?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-27 04:00:33 EST FROM: Fdumlao
Do You need need to have a conference inorder to justify modification under 504? I work in a residential program which has a education program that was partially staffed by the DOE. The staff provided programming for the SPED certified students. This year the DOE pulled the teacher position and decided to provide only tutors with limited hours as determined by the DOE Guidelines for Home/Hospital Tutor. In brief, SPED students will be provided 10 hrs of tutors, H.S. nonSPED 5 hrs, Jr. Hi non SPED 4 hrs. As a teacher in the residential program who is hired by the program and not a DOE teacher I taught the reg ed students, I am qualified to teach SPED, however. My concern is that
1). the SPED students whos IEP may state 20hrs of education is now being given only 10hrs.
2). The application for tutors designate that this is a 504 process. There is no place for parents/guardians to acknowledge that this is ok with them. Or procedurally that a conference should be held.
3). A private facility who does not receive any funds for education under IDEA is not obligated to the IEP? Comments with possible citation of source or will be greatly welcomed.
STUCK in the System
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-08-27 13:18:59 EST FROM: MarRigby
Fdumlao:
Sounds illegal to me. I am reasonably sure that there must be an initial conference of some sort in order to write the 504 plan. However, I'm not certain whether there is an established timetable for remeeting. That can be written in the plan. Whatever is written on that plan is what should be carried out. If there are not a specified number of hours specified, then I guess the 10 hours have to stand.
As for SPED students, they are breaking the law. IEPs need to be carried out by professionals specified on the IEP, and for the number of hours specified. Tutors are not necessarily certified professionals. And, you are right. It's pretty obvious that one hand does not know what the other is doing at the state level. Is there a Dept. of Sp. Ed. at the state level that you can call and talk to someone in the know???
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 Coordinator DATE:96-08-28 22:45:45 EST FROM: RHazen658
Could you please write to me RHazen658 on AOL aon give me some info on implementing a 504 plan for my daughter. We are in a private religious school and I need some info. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Susan
SUBJECT: Re:504Help for HSTEC DATE:96-08-31 15:07:01 EST FROM: DStag0069
Aloha. Hawaii does not allow accommodations for SPED students who must pass their state test for high school graduation/exit. Can a state board of education refuse to graduate a SPED student by refusing any accommodations at the exit point, when the student's IEP has been consistent in recommendidng calculator accessibility for test taking? Can a state take 504 funds and refuse accommodation?
SUBJECT: Re:504 Coordinator DATE:96-08-31 15:24:22 EST FROM: DStag0069
Please send any materials to Carmen and Ishmael Stagner, 46-185 Alaloa St., Kaneohe, Hawaii, 96744. We are both SPED teachers as well as being parents of a special needs child.
SUBJECT: Re:504Help for HSTEC DATE:96-08-31 19:40:14 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Aloha. Hawaii does not allow accommodations for SPED students who must pass their state test for high school graduation/exit. Can a state board of education refuse to graduate a SPED student by refusing any accommodations at the exit point, when the student's IEP has been consistent in recommendidng calculator accessibility for test taking? Can a state take 504 funds and refuse accommodation?"
They cannot refuse to make any accommodations, but at some point they can "draw the line in the sand." Where that line would be drawn varies, but- for instance-it makes no sense to read the reading portion of an achievment test to a child. It does make sense to read the science and social studies parts to him if he can't read well.
There are no 504 funds. 504 accommodations are completely unfunded.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-09-02 06:50:43 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<It seems to me that no one "pays" for the 504 plan because it is simply stating that this child needs modifications that the classroom teacher can implement. >>
This is true to an extent, however the primary reason that there is no funding for 504 is because it is a very broad, general civil rights disability law that covers all institutions and/or organizations that receive any kind of federal money anywhere in their budget. Section 504 comes from the Rehabilitaton Act of 1973, and would also cover a disabled child who needed assistance with some aspect of their care, like a child who needed to have a catheritization procedure performed everyday after lunch.
Really, it reads that the institution must provide accommodations that will allow the child to benefit from the "services" (education) provided. For a child with ADD it is usually classroom accommodations. Though, 504 does allow for special education services if that is what the child needs. Not all children who need special educational support fit into the neat and tidy categories of IDEA. Those are the children, who without supports would not benefit, who are served under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-02 06:56:33 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I have an 11 year old, diagnosed with ADHD. She has difficulty with Math. Can anyone tell me what I need to do to get the school to allow her to use a calculator. I have tried mulitiplication rap, videos, and she can get them but can't put it to paper. Someone help! >>
If you are sure this is an intervention that is absolutely necessary, then you simply make the requested accommodation a part of the childs 504 plan or IDEA/IEP. Has you child been evaluated for a math learning disability? If not, maybe she should. Whenever possible, it is important to really be careful that the child is not "weakened" by accommodations. Sometimes, we can want them to have "too much" help, and then they don't gain resiliance or develop strengths that they otherwise might. On the other hand, if you child has a specific math disability, then the school should be developing and individualized plan to specifically remediate that disability.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-02 07:09:12 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<1). the SPED students whos IEP may state 20hrs of education is now being given only 10hrs.>>
I'm assuming this is an IEP under 504? Yes? Since the chance is drastic (50% decrease), I wonder if they have to provide any kind of education justification for that. 504 does say that the accommodations are to be designed so that the student will benefit from the services provided. If that condition is impaired by this chance, it could be a problem.
<< 2). The application for tutors designate that this is a 504 process. There is no place for parents/guardians to acknowledge that this is ok with them.
Or procedurally that a conference should be held.>>
Yes, this is right. It is not "written" that there must be a meeting, or that even the parents must agree; however, it does suggest that the institution follow along the same procedural processes as set down in IDEA. From what I have read, I think that if an institution practiced "not" contacting parents and guardians and getting their input that the Office of Civil Rights (who oversees 504) might not be amused. BTW, as a part of the 504 regulations, the insitution is obligated to have their 504 procedures, regulations and safeguards IN WRITING and on file, available to the parents and guardians. They are obligated to inform the parents and guardians of their due process rights. If this insitution has not done these two things, then they are in violation of 504.
<<3). A private facility who does not receive any funds for education under IDEA is not obligated to the IEP?>>
A private facility who received any federal money of any kind it obligated under Section 504, and Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act. The money doesn't have to be "education" money - just federal money. If the private facility doesn't receive any federal money of any kind at all, they are still obligated to provide reasonable accommodations under Title III of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Pretty much, every institution in this country must provide accommodations to people with dsabilities, with the exception of religious schools. However, if sounds as if, by virtue of the DOE staffers, that this institutions is receiving significant federal support.
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Sped &parochial scho DATE:96-09-02 07:14:38 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< My question is, does the public school receive the monies for these children? And shouldnt the parochial school receive some of these monies because they are directly servicing these children????>>
The public schools receive money under IDEA for the children in their district for whom they provide services. A disabled child in a parochial school is eligible to benefit from the services provided in the public schools, but usually within their system - in other words, the child might be taken to a public school during the school week to recieve speech therapy.
The way that IDEA is written the federal government cannot provide parochial schools with any money - part of the separation of church and state. And, therefore, the parochial schools are also not obligated to provide services. If they don't take any federal money, then the government can't tell them what to do. Yet, because the students are residents in a district, then they must provided with services by the district. The catch it that the child must be available for those services to be provided, which can often only be done during the school day.
SUBJECT: Re:504Help for HSTEC DATE:96-09-02 07:23:36 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Aloha. Hawaii does not allow accommodations for SPED students who must pass their state test for high school graduation/exit. Can a state board of education refuse to graduate a SPED student by refusing any accommodations at the exit point, when the student's IEP has been consistent in recommendidng calculator accessibility for test taking? Can a state take 504 funds and refuse accommodation?>>
First of all, I think it is important to clarify 504 from IDEA. 504 is a general civil rights disability law that obligated any institution that receives federal money to provide reasonable accommodations to a disabled person, in this case a student. There are no special funds that are attached to Section 504. It is an "unfunded" law. IDEA, on the other hand, is a very specific education law for children with disabilities where very specific criteria must be meet to be eligible, and then very specific procedures must be followed by the institute to be in compliance and therefore to receive the very specific federal money that is available in this "funded" law.
In answer to your question, it seems to me that to deny a student with a disability a needed accommodation (especially one that has been made available and shown to be necessary up to now) is in violation of civil rights law. It would be like suddenly telling a child in a wheel chair that they may take the test, but the school has removed the wheelchair ramp and told the student that it is their problem to figure out how to get up the stairs and into the building. That would be denying that student access to the services provided. The accommodations for students with learning disabilities are much the same. That calculator is like the ramp. I think you might want to touch base with the Office of Civil Rights in your region and ask for clairification. Oh, and each district is obligated to have 504 procedural safeguards in writing and available, which advise parents of their due process rights (a constitutional right), and spells out for parents exactly what the district's procedures are for services under 504.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-09-02 08:05:26 EST FROM: GJake4
What constitutes "disabled" under 504? My son was tested for LD in written expression, and though he scored well below grade level it wasn't low enough to meet the criteria for Sped services. He is entering HS tomorrow (10th grade) and I want to have some modifications made for him. When I assist him with writing (he dictates) his work is B (at least) material. When he writes it himself he can barely get beyond simple sentences (3.5 grade level). I am particularly worried about taking tests in core subjects, and papers, etc. in English. He is very articulate and bright but he can't write. Any advice?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-02 11:12:52 EST FROM: SusanS29
Good heavens, GJ what state do you live in that writing at 3.5 level wasn't enough to qualify? Seriously I want to know.
Meanwhile i would suggest getting an independent evaluation. Then have this person write a letter of needed accommodations. Make sure that if a diagnosis of "dysgraphia" is appropriate, it's given and put in writing for the school.
Then insist on a 504 plan based on the dysgraphia.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-04 20:29:01 EST FROM: GJake4
Susan I didn't mean to stack the deck, and I thought about this after I wrote. The "Broad Written Expression" score was higher because it included two tests, but there was a component of the WJ-R where the score was as low as I stated. I guess he did better on the part where he had to write words (vocab.) but when it came to sentences... We live in MN and I have contacted the 504 person at his new school. I hope to hear from him soon. I am already worried as my son has expressed some dismay at his Language Arts teacher (she's "meaner" than Mrs...(last year)). I should note that I am in my first year of teaching SLD in a HS resource room and also have my Language Arts 7-12 license. Perhaps a little knowledge is a dangerous thing?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-05 22:05:10 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Susan I didn't mean to stack the deck, and I thought about this after I wrote. The "Broad Written Expression" score was higher because it included two tests, but there was a component of the WJ-R where the score was as low as I stated. "
The WJR isn't like the TOWL. In my opinion a test like the TOWL should be used to pinpoint written language impairment.
Writing WORDS is not a significant skill at her age, but difficulty writing sentences is.
In my opinion you can appeal the refusal of services and you might well win.
You could certainly insist they use the TOWL.
SUBJECT: Home Computer DATE:96-09-08 15:00:12 EST FROM: Latinsi
Please help me to advice parent of 504 hearing impaired student that had a multimedia computer listed as a modification and also recommendation at last meeting in March and still no computer.School is in violation I think by not providing computer.The 504 compliance officer for the district said that since the school had "messed up", the school would have to provide the computer.School said to wait for funding, funding is here. How should I approach the school:? Cost of computer will be about $2,500. If school or district denys computer what is our next step? Help me with this delicate matter, I teach at this school but I am also this student's mentor!
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-09-09 23:17:57 EST FROM: Kilar
504 is a broad civil rights law which protects the rights of individuals with handicaps in programs and activities that receive federal financial assistance from the Us Dpt of ed. It identiries students as handicapped so long as he or she meets the definition of qualified handicapped person; ie., has or has had a physical or mental impairment which substantially limits a major life activity, or is regarded as handicapped by others.
Your son, by your description, could fall under IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act). But he must be identified with at least 1 of the 13 categories of qualifying conditions. The school should have a complete definition. The school should also have a multidisciplinary team that can administer assessment tests to determine if he is in fact LD.
SUBJECT: Re:504 - State of Louisiana DATE:96-09-10 06:09:54 EST FROM: MaryinNola
In need of implementation information. I represent families of children that are not receiving appropriate accomodations. I work closely with families in Orleans, Jefferson, St. Bernard and Plaquemine Parishes. Even though Jefferson Parish is suppose to have the "best" plan in the state, we were just recently advised for OCR, Dallas that the evaluation process they are using is not appropriate. I would like any information at all that can be given on how other states identify these children and how they accomodate for them. I'd be happy to share the information we have with anyone interested.
Please write to me AOL....screenname MaryinNola.
Thanks
SUBJECT: 504 - Non Public Schools DATE:96-09-10 06:17:51 EST FROM: MaryinNola
Also looking for information regarding implementation of 504 in non-public schools.
Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:Home Computer DATE:96-09-11 07:46:38 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< How should I approach the school:? Cost of computer will be about $2,500. If school or district denys computer what is our next step? Help me with this delicate matter, I teach at this school but I am also this student's mentor!>>
Well, the parents are the ones who need to be pushing. Has this issue gone to due process? Or, is it being handled through "in-house" procedures? At the moment there is so much discussion about assistive technology and federal $$ being poured into this area, I would be very surprised if the school cannot get money to provide this computer. Is this computer for home or school use? I think that the home use issue can be a little sticky. The Office of Civil Rights oversees Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Perhaps a phone call to them will enlighten you as to the next step. They are very helpful and non-threatening. Also, does your district have a written set of 504 Safeguards (regulations) available? It should...it's part of the law that they have a written plan, and that it is made available to people who need to know that information. Also, they are required to inform the parents of children who qualify under Section 504 of their consituttional rights to due process.
SUBJECT: Re:504 - State of Louisiana DATE:96-09-11 07:50:20 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I would like any information at all that can be given on how other states identify these children and how they accomodate for them. I'd be happy to share the information we have with anyone interested.>.
Because Section 504 requires districts to have a written plan of procedure, and then allows the districts to devise their own to be in compliance...it can be very different (in the details) from district to district. On the whole (and also recommended by OCR), is to follow the general rules and guidelines set down by IDEA for identification, evaluation and services for kids who have non-specific disabilities and qualify as handicapped under Section 504.
Contact NICHCY at 1-800-695-0285 (National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities) to get some really excellent and reliable information on the laws that effect children with disabilities in our schools.
SUBJECT: Re:504 - Non Public Schools DATE:96-09-11 07:53:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Also looking for information regarding implementation of 504 in non-public schools.>>
The only federal disability law that non-public (and non-religious) schools are required to follow is the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III. No non-pulbic school is required to "serve" disabiled students under Section 504 or under IDEA, unless they receive federal assistance ($$) in some way. Students who attend non-public schools are still eligible to recieve services in the local public school district, but usually (though no always) at the public school sites and at their convenience. Religious schools are free from all federal disability law obligations within their program.
SUBJECT: Qualifying for Spec. Ed. DATE:96-09-11 15:08:47 EST FROM: Sing440209
I live in Palm Beach County Florida, and have a son who is diagnosed with Specific Learning Disabiities, Tic Disorder and ADD. He is not a conduct problem and is currently working at or above grade level. He is significantly impaired in areas of written expression, is an auditory learner, and has motor difficulty with writing. A 504 plan was recommended for my son, but I get no clear cut yes on Occupational Therapy, and Speech language eval-even though it was recommended by my son';s testing and primary psychologists.I am told by the school psychologist that although there is a 24 point spread between total and performance IQ, there is no evidence that his Learning Disabilities are adversely affecting his academics and would probably result in him not qualifying for Special Ed. His neurologist says the Tic Disorder should qualify him for Special Ed. I did sign a consent for evaluation and received a copy of the procedural safeguards during the meeting.Please-someone comment!!!!!!!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Home Computer DATE:96-09-11 16:44:28 EST FROM: SusanS29
"<< How should I approach the school:? Cost of computer will be about $2,500."
Why is it necessary to spend this much on the computer? I think it could be done considerably cheaper... and would help press the case.
SUBJECT: Re: Qualifying for Spec. Ed. DATE:96-09-11 16:48:11 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I am told by the school psychologist that although there is a 24 point spread between total and performance IQ, there is no evidence that his Learning Disabilities are adversely affecting his academics and would probably result in him not qualifying for Special Ed."
Each state gets to define how they will classify a student as being "learning disabled." In the state I'm in, the spread is ignored (as it should be as many students who are truly LD do not show such a spread).
But virtually all states require that the student be behind academically. you say he's "impaired" in written expression." Did they test his written expression using a standardized individual test such as the TOWL? Or did they just "eyeball" that area?
Many districts do, even though it's one of the three major instructional areas covered by IDEA.
Your son might also be eligible under IDEA as "Other Health Impaired." But I would recommend that you go back and read the report very carefully, and see what kind of testing was done in Written Expression.
SUBJECT: Re:Qualifying for Spec. Ed. DATE:96-09-11 16:50:38 EST FROM: SusanS29
I just had another thought about this.
It sounds as if they have not done a full-scale evaluation.
If they haven't, request that they do so. Put the request in writing. Specifically request that he be tested in the area of written expression using an "individually administered, standardized test." Use those exact words.
If you put your request in writing they cannot refuse. That's federal law; their policies have nothing to do with it.
Please post back and let us know how it goes. I'm pretty confident your son is eligible for help; so now we have to "work the system" to get it.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 - State of Louisiana DATE:96-09-11 21:44:03 EST FROM: Mrfixone
Ratatat is giving you some good areas to start off in. NICHEY has a toll free call, free AND helpful information, a quick response, plus they can refer you to local places in your area for support groups and anything else you might need. They have a lot of up-to-date and good information at their fingertips! Give them a try if you havn't already.
SUBJECT: 504 - Louisiana DATE:96-09-11 22:13:56 EST FROM: MaryinNola
Let me further explain the problem I am having. I do appreciate any assistance.
1. I'm very familiar with Nichy. Distribute their information daily to families. I am a parent trainer/facilitator for our State PTI (Parent Training and Information Center). I'm very versed with the laws how they are written, but for some unknown reason I think that the metro New Orleans area is not being forced to follow these laws. I have been in constant contact with a staff attorney for OCR in Dallas for a week now. I am being told by her two things:
A. Non-Public schools that receive "federal funds" DON'T have to follow 504 laws., and
B. The way that our school systems are identifying kids is not correct.
In order for me to get a clearer picture and be able to fight this big monster I need specifics on how other states and regions have handled this. Actual case laws or decisions would greatly help.
Currently Jefferson Parish, Louisiana only uses check lists for screening potential 504 students. This same parish is the model for the State of Louisiana for 504. This scares the hell out of me thinking that everyone else is following their lead and they aren't doing it correctly.
If ANYONE can provide me with any information I that I could use to build our case in assisting families I would be grateful. I'm really starting to get the feeling that old fashion corrupt politics is going on between the OCR in Dallas and local school systems here.
Any names that have been previously sent will be used. Thanks again for all your assistance.
SUBJECT: Re:Qualifying for Spec. Ed. DATE:96-09-12 19:15:48 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
As an attorney with a practice focused on representing spec ed students, I second the "put it in writing". If you do not get an answer in reasonable time, demand a new IEPC or 504 meeting to review demand, if that fails, demand due process hearing. Good Luck.
SUBJECT: Re:504 - Louisiana DATE:96-09-12 20:08:14 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I have been in constant contact with a staff attorney for OCR in Dallas for a week now. I am being told by her two things:
A. Non-Public schools that receive "federal funds" DON'T have to follow 504 laws., and
B. The way that our school systems are identifying kids is not correct. >>
Public schools (because they receive federal money) are obliged to follow Section 504. IIf a non-public school is receiving federal money, I believe that a condition of the receipt of that money is to agree to follow federal laws, such as a civil rights disability law....that's what 504 is. Also, if this is a non-religious school, then it is obligated under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III to do pretty much the same thing that Section 504 requires of public schools. Also, public schools (because they receive federal money) are obliged to follow ADA, Title II...as would, I suspect, a non-public school that receives federal money. As far as I know, no non-public school that is religiously based can receive federal money without also following Section 504.
There is are a couple of books that you should check out. One is Attention Deficit Disorder and the Law by Latham and Latham. You can get it from the ADD WareHouse at 1-800-233-9273. It is a guide on case law pertinent to ADD issues, but many of those relate to Section 504.
Also, there is a wonderful book by a civil rights education lawyer (in Texas) named Reed Martin. The name of his book is Extraordinary Children, Ordinary Lives. In this small and powerful book he walks you through a selection of benchmark cases that made it to high level court decisions. It is the most revealing book I've read about what these laws really do mean, and what Congress really did intend. It's hard to get, unfortunately. I got my copy on-line through Amazon books on the web. The URL is: http://www.amazon.com/
There is also an URL for the DoE's Office of Civil Rights which may have some information for you:
http://www.ed.gov/offices/OCR
And a very web sites on special ed legal information:
SUBJECT: Re:504 - Louisiana DATE:96-09-12 21:19:21 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Please welcome Big John Esq to these boards. I have read many of his posts in the LIN message boards. He is a very informed fellow with good insight and advice. Be nice to him and he will really be quite helpful.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-09-13 20:28:10 EST FROM: Urug
I am an Exceptional Student Education Specialist in Broward County, and I also work with 504 kids. I just wanted to let you know that if your child qualifies for 504, he should receive any and all modifications that will help him be more successful in school. You can request the following: shortened school day, shorter assignments, individual test administration, the tests can be read aloud or you can request oral exams. That is just a few examples. Each school should have an ESE Specialist. I would suggest that you contact that person and ask them for a list of classroom modifications. Good luck!!!
SUBJECT: second language as 504 DATE:96-09-14 08:21:51 EST FROM: WHoyle7789
I am having trouble finding whether or not I can use 504 modification plans to assist low level spanish speaking children. If they are several years behind in skills, can I by law write a 504 plan to help protect them while working with them in the regular classes? I do not live in an area with a large hispanic population. I am trying to use the 504 to assit them, not label.
SUBJECT: Re:second language as 504 DATE:96-09-14 15:58:58 EST FROM: SusanS29
504 is part of the Civil Rights law.
Students with ADD come under it because ADD is considered a disability.
But I think 504 refers specifically to disabilities-in other words, if they have ADD they have ADD no matter what language they speak at home or what their ethnic or racial origins are.
SUBJECT: Re:second language as 504 DATE:96-09-14 18:09:59 EST FROM: MarRigby
If you think that any of your lower functioning second language students are eligible for services, then refer them to a student study team. At that meeting the student's problem is stated to the rest of the team which includes a representative from pupil services (social worker, guidance counselor, LSH clinician, school psychologist), classroom teacher, parent, special ed. teacher, and a school administrator. Suggestions should be made to help modify student's curriculum in his classoom and ESL classroom. If strategies don't appear to be working after a reasonable amount of time, request a second meeting, where additional modifications might be suggested. If not successful, then request PPT, where both psychological, educational, perceptual, and language evaluations may be requested. After all testing has been completed there will be a second PPT to determine whether student qualifies for special education services. To qualify, he/she must meet the criterea for any of the applicable special education categories. It may work a little differently in your city, but check it out. It doesn't matter what the child's dominant language is.
Hope this helps.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: 504- ADHD/Open concept class DATE:96-09-14 22:58:15 EST FROM: T2C
I am working on graduate thesis. My prof told us to do something in which we had a personal interest.
My son is a 504 student with ADHD and a central auditory processing problem. Currently he is maintaining a straight A average his modification has been a self contained class- one with 4 walls and a door. Next year he will be going to a school with the open concept. They are already talking about taking the 504 lable off of him. With his average, they see no educational need. But without the physical structure, he is lost. So, I need statistics, stories, etc. pro and con on experiences with open area classrooms. Please, PLEASE e-mail me at T2C.
Your help will be greatly appreciated.
SUBJECT: Re:504- ADHD/Open concept cl DATE:96-09-15 07:48:16 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Next year he will be going to a school with the open concept. They are already talking about taking the 504 lable off of him. With his average, they see no educational need. But without the physical structure, he is lost. So, I need statistics, stories, etc. pro and con on experiences with open area classrooms. >>
If you want emperical research on the necessity of structure for an ADHD child, you need look no further than Russell Barkley's work. You can probably find volumes in your unversity library...and specifically, look for cites to his ADHD Report.
The fact that your child is doing is well is proof that the accommodations work and that he needs them. Why schools need to work from a model of failure before providing a child with accommodations that help is beyond me. Also, since you are an equal partner in your child's educational decisions with the school, "they" cannot "remove" him from 504 protection as long as you, the parent, want to have him accommodated with an official, written accommodation plan under 504.
How old is your son and what grade is he going into?
SUBJECT: Re:504- ADHD/Open concept cl DATE:96-09-15 10:36:32 EST FROM: SusanS29
"The fact that your child is doing is well is proof that the accommodations work and that he needs them. "
Bingo.
Otherwise it's like-well, we gave this diabetic insulin, and her blood sugar returned to normal. So she's not diabetic any longer. But in truth the school *does not have the power to remove the ADD label.*
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-09-15 23:37:27 EST FROM: TAWANDA007
Where are the civil rights of the teachers and the regular students as well as the other special education students that are trying to behave and learn. Take responsibilty for your own child and his/her actions.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-09-16 06:00:19 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Where are the civil rights of the teachers and the regular students as well as the other special education students that are trying to behave and learn.
Take responsibilty for your own child and his/her actions. >>
You are one very angry person...why? What has happened to make your so angry?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-09-19 15:45:57 EST FROM: Socadream
Excuse me!!! You sound like a few teachers I have had to deal with regarding my ADHD/LD son and LD daughter. We ARE taking RESPONSIBILITY for our children. We are educating ourselves on how to parent them, protect them, serve them, educate them and hopfully avoid lifelong scars that SOME uninformed persons have inflicted upon them during their educational experiance. Our goal is to have independent, self-sustaining, productive, contributing and content adults. Just like all the other "regular" kids. I do believe that the "pursuit of liberty etc..." in the constitution was intended for them too!!!!
SUBJECT: Re:second language as 504 DATE:96-09-20 00:27:42 EST FROM: BLiving769
Do you have a fax? I have information from OCR on this subject that would help you. I could either fax this info. or mail it to you.
E-mail me you fax number or address, I would be glad to share this with you.
Betty
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection?FROM: DATE:96-09-25 18:55:38 EST FROM: MaryinNola FROM: Socadream
Excuse me!!! You sound like a few teachers I have had to deal with regarding my ADHD/LD son and LD daughter. We ARE taking RESPONSIBILITY for our children. We are educating ourselves on how to parent them, protect them, serve them, educate them and hopfully avoid lifelong scars that SOME uninformed persons have inflicted upon them during their educational experiance. Our goal is to have independent, self-sustaining, productive, contributing and content adults. Just like all the other "regular" kids. I do believe that the "pursuit of liberty etc..." in the constitution was intended for them too!!!!
AMEN!!!!!!! You can never fault a parent for advocating for their children. After all, if they don't do it, who in the hell will. It's more than obvious in most cases we can't wait for the educational system to do whats best. SOCADREAM....Keep up the good work. After all......YOUR CHILDRENS LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-02 16:47:36 EST FROM: Islelark
Someone PLEASE HELP! I teach a 12th grade college preparatory course which is a requirement for graduation in my state. A spec. ed student, classified NI, was just transferred into my course. Because this is a college prep course 80 percent deals with writing essays, answering essay tests etc. I don't give multiple choice tests. This student cannot write a simple paragraph without assistance and has difficulty understanding fairly easy short poems or stories. The parent is determined to have them in an academic class. Based on what I have seen, this student will fail miserably for the year and not graduate. Teachers who have encountered the parent before warn me that they will try to have me lower/alter the standards for the class so the student will succeed. I cannot in good conscience do this. I will stay afterschool, give the student extra time, give all the help I can, but I cannot lower the standards of an academic course without jeopardizing my credibility with my other students and their parents. Please help me. I need some suggestions. The spec. ed dept is absolutely sick about this. The student is on the verge of a breakdown, even with two periods in the resource room.
SUBJECT: Re: HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-03 06:21:01 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I cannot in good conscience do this. I will stay afterschool, give the student extra time, give all the help I can, but I cannot lower the standards of an academic course without jeopardizing my credibility with my other students and their parents. Please help me. I need some suggestions. The spec. ed dept is absolutely sick about this. The student is on the verge of a breakdown, even with two periods in the resource room.>>
I'm assuming this child has a written Individualized Education Plan. You had better go read it and find out what the written goals and objectives are for the year. It may well be that an adjustment to academic performance is expected and required for this student. If that is the case, you really don't have a choice about making adjustments for this student. You certainly don't have to make adjustments for the whole class. And, if this child is close to a "breakdown" adding all that extra time and work will only make that situation worse. More is not, necessarily, better.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-03 19:05:41 EST FROM: SusanS29
If this course is required for graduation, then it is required that he be given appropriate accommodations. Period.
Unless I'm mistaken we're talking about a student who in spite of obstacles has managed to complete the other required coursework. Your district risks a lawsuit if they cannot bend on the structure and keep this student from graduating over one course.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-03 20:07:38 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a written 504 plan also protect the classroom teacher from lawsuits? What can a classroom teacher do if her district, for some reason, is hesitant to write 504 plans, but she believes a child in her class desperately needs modification over a longer period of time than just this year? What is her protection from parents who may want to sue?
Also, to what extent can a teacher modify her curriculum before it is considered special ed services? Our district tells us it is our jobs to modify curriculum for individual learners, therefore we don't need to write any 504 plans. How can we, as teachers, answer that?
CoTeachNet
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-04 20:52:44 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a written 504 plan also protect the classroom teacher from lawsuits?"
Yes, of course-just like an IEP.
"Our district tells us it is our jobs to modify curriculum for individual learners, therefore we don't need to write any 504 plans. How can we, as teachers, answer that?"
Well, you can't. Just go ahead and do good teaching, modifying appropriately as you need to. Just don't call them "modifications." Play the game.
Pretty soon a parent will get upset, and call in the Office of Civil Rights. The administration will have to explain their ludicrous policies to representatives of the federal government.
SUBJECT: Need help with 504's DATE:96-10-06 14:55:07 EST FROM: PURUIJI
This is my third special ed. job. I am a junior high LD/BD Resource teacher. Our school has quite a bit of kids with 504's, mostly ADD/ADHD. Do these kids have the "right to come to my room" as the regular teachers put it, or do they have to make accomodations in their rooms since they are not labled LD or BD? Look, I will help any kid I can, former high school students (boy can they get into all sorts of problems and mischief when I'm not there anymore!), both regular and special ed., and any student labled or not labled in my junior high. Why are all of the regular ed. teachers afraid of me getting into the habit of "ocassionally" helping out 504 kids? Is this illegal? Need some advice. Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-06 20:32:43 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Pretty soon a parent will get upset, and call in the Office of Civil Rights. The administration will have to explain their ludicrous policies to representatives of the federal government.>>
Actually, if a teacher feels brave enough and strongly enough...the Office of Civil Rights is not adverse to receiving complaints from teachers. They have and will respond to complaints from teachers about school districts that are willfully out of compliance.
SUBJECT: Re:Need help with 504's DATE:96-10-06 20:36:05 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Do these kids have the "right to come to my room" as the regular teachers put it, or do they have to make accomodations in their rooms since they are not labled LD or BD? >>
An accommodation plan for a child protected under Section 504 should simply be a plan that meets that particular child's specific needs. If that child needs to visit the resource room and gain extra help or guidance from you, then it can certainly be provided for in a 504 plan. Just make sure it is written and official that these kids have the "right" to come to you for specific help.
Under Section 504 students can receive special education support and support services, if that is what they NEED. When Congress wrote these laws, that was the primary motivation...to make sure that students special needs were being addressed.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-06 20:59:07 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
Could you explain better how a 504 plan can protect a teacher from a lawsuit from a parent? And also, as I asked before, I know I can document the modifications I do, but could you also explain better just when do the modifications I do as a classroom teacher become special education services? In effect, I am giving a "regular" child special services. I will modify for any child in order for them to learn within their modality and strengths, but then, in effect, we wouldn't ever have to write IEPs OR 504s if every teacher did that, would we! Then again, maybe that's the ultimate direction we should be heading.
Thanks to you all so much for helping so many of us out here to understand this complicated issue!
To Ratatat on turning in my district to the Office of Civil Rights: I am not tenured yet and therefore would be understandably hesitant to do so, but would be interested in how I can quietly educate my parents on 504 plans who have no idea of their existence.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-06 22:06:38 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
As a spec ed attorney the key element I look at is whether or not the 504/IEP plan has been complied with. If there is no plan, I then look at why and who made the decision not to evaluate, etc. Generally, in Michigan government immunity statutes protect classromm teachers, but not if civil rights violation is present. Real question is why would an attorney want to add a teacher to a lawsuit. Educational malpractice, although it occurs frequently, is generally not actionable. When I loofk at parties to add, I look to the ones who can change things to make sure what my client wants changed is changed to benefit future students. That means District as entity, Supt in offical capacity, and rarely school board members individually, but only if they have taken some discriminatory action (like claiming ADD is not a disease in an expulsion hearing). I never have added a teacher as they generally are my best secret allies (frequently in forced silence due to "school politics').
Hope the comment of a parents atty helps.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-06 22:26:28 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Could you explain better how a 504 plan can protect a teacher from a lawsuit from a parent? "
The history of IEPs, which are very similar to 504's is that when the school has implemented the IEP in good faith they're off the hook legally.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-07 08:23:07 EST FROM: RhoLaren
BigJohnEsq.
Thank you for calling teachers your secret allies who have been silenced. I have been trying to get this point across on these boards for many moons. There are some who seem unable to get it. They refuse to acknowledge the realities of school system politics and the tenuous position non-tenured teachers are in. Thank you for your unwitting support. And, there are some who think we should put our livlihoods in jeopardy for policies and laws we really are not thoroughly versed in. Thank you, again.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-07 10:51:34 EST FROM: SusanS29
"And, there are some who think we should put our livlihoods in jeopardy for policies and laws we really are not thoroughly versed in."
Those people are called "New to the system," Laren. :)
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-10-07 19:23:33 EST FROM: Mrebel
Any student (labeled or not) can have tests read to them. It is up to the building principal to okay it. At least that's the case in N.Y.S.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-10-08 07:21:13 EST FROM: SLancas640
what exactly is 504 policies?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-10-08 07:29:04 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<what exactly is 504 policies? >>
If you read back in this folder you will gain more details in answer to your question.
Briefly, 504 is Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, a civil rights law, the makes it illegal to discriminate against someone based on their disabilities and says that a public institution must provide adequate support and accommodations to those with diabilities to that they receive the same benefit as non-disabled individuals from the services provided, in the case of a school that's education. It is a general law that does not specify which disabilities...all disabilities are included.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-08 17:32:31 EST FROM: Islelark
Thank you for your comments. However, I am still left with a student who would be better served in a basic English class not an academic class. This course includes analysis of major literary works such as the Odyssey, Dante's Inferno, Shakespeare and related works. As far as this student being capable of handling the work to this point, they have not demonstrated competentcy in the required areas. The parent is pushing for this student to be in an academic course, and has threatened previous teachers who refused to pass their child. The IEP proficiencies are not far removed from a regular class grading system. However, even with those allowances there is a large possibility that this student will fail for the year.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-08 21:30:38 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<This course includes analysis of major literary works such as the Odyssey, Dante's Inferno, Shakespeare and related works.>>
No knowing specifically, exactly how this child is weak, it's pretty hard to suggest specific suggestions and accommodations that would help support the child. Immediately, when I see the list of literary works you've listed above, I think of Cliff Notes as a way around getting the "jist" and content of the subject matter in an easier format. Is this something the student could manage? <<The IEP proficiencies are not far removed from a regular class grading system. However, even with those allowances there is a large possibility that this student will fail for the year. >>
Each IEP should have a clearly stated set of Goals and Objectives. Each year it should be reviewed to assess the students current level of performance, and each year the students progress should be assessed with the stated goals and objectives in mind. If the agreed to goals and objectives are not being met, year after year, then the school could be obligated to private money for a private school that can educate this child.
What are the specific Goals and Objectives in this child's IEP? What accommodations have been listed to provide support in the classroom? Is is possible that this student needs a one-on-one aid in order to learn? I am not clear as to what this student's particular weaknesses really are.
SUBJECT: Re: HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-09 07:47:12 EST FROM: SusanS29
I would suggest, then, giving the parent a short written summary of the child's progress or lack of same (I'm assuming a lower-level course) would fulfill graduation requirements?)
More often than many high school teachers realize, students with IEPs are blocked from taking courses they can handle because of an unwarranted assumption that the child can't do the work.
But if you have evidence have a plan of action and get the backing of your administration ahead of time.
Worst case scenario is that this student will try and fail. Then he will have to go to summer school to get his diploma. He may view this as a truly terrible result, but it doesn't mean he won't be a high school graduate.
I wouldn't tell the parents that, though. I'd just lay out the facts as I see them. Make sure you have lots of objective evidence (papers from other students doing C work for comparative purposes, for instance.)
The high school tried to tell us that my daughter (the one who got the 5 on the national AP test) wouldn't be able to handle the work in that test. She appealed and was one of the few students ever to pass their written appeals test.
The same school district tried to force us into retaining her in second grade.
Parents of kids with special needs have seen this happen a lot to both their children and other people's children. So often at some point they simply have to make the decision on their own and ... ignore... the school's advice. Every single time the local school has tried to tell me about my daughter's "limits" they've been wrong.
And... I've tried to allow her to drop down to slightly less-demanding classes in one instance, and they wouldn't let her. She got a D for the year and barely missed failing it.
I'm not saying this is true in this child's case-only that I understand why a parent might well ignore a schools' suggestions about what courses were appropriate for their child with, say, a learning disability (what we call "neurological impairment" here.) We don't have the NI label where I am.
Sit in the mom's and student's shoes for a moment, and then provide objective feedback about this student's performance compared to others'.
SUBJECT: Re: HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-09 07:53:01 EST FROM: SusanS29
" I think of Cliff Notes as a way around getting the "jist" and content of the subject matter in an easier format. Is this something the student could manage?"
Cliff Notes can help a student get the overall form and structure of a major literary work before they start reading, but can't substitute for having, say, Talking Books to absorb the whole thing. I only say that because this teacher might misunderstand how Cliff Notes might be used appropriately to help a student learn complexities they'll never get from CN.
Then papers can be dictated. A well-dictated paper requires as much thought and organizational processes in the head as a written one does, so it's all in "how it's done."
If these sorts of modifications will allow the child to earn a C in the classroom, then legally they have to be done.
Success in prior classes can't legally be used to exclude a child with a learning disability unless good accommodations (such as listed above) were used and the child still just didn't grasp the main concepts taught. A child can't be excluded from these tracks simply because he or she is dyslexic if things like Talking Books allow the student to understand the material. A student can't be excluded because he or she is so dysgraphic that they will have to dictate written assignments.
If those things haven't been done in the past, then exclusion from this class based on, for instance, grades, is inappropriate.
This isn't "dumbing" down any more than a wheelchair for a child with physical limitations is.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-16 00:55:33 EST FROM: MaryinNola
Making modifications and accomodations is not altering or changing your grading. A good teacher can find a way to make sure a special needs student can achieve. Look at this student as a challenge. A challenge that you want to win and then the student will win also.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-16 01:00:57 EST FROM: MaryinNola
Modifying your curriculum is not the basis a student is determined a special education candidate. Teachers need to be more in tune to the individual learning styles of all their students. Some students strenghts will be others weaknesses and vice versa. It's perfectly okay to give a few students lesser math problems to complete, lesser written assignements if they have a problem in the area of written work, etc. Depending on the disability depends on what needs to be done.
Teachers in the U.S. can be held personally accountable for discrimination. However, it doesn't sound like your system is discriminiating. It sounds as though they are telling you to identify all children with a problem and make necessary accomodations. This is in fact 504 without calling it such and if a child is receivning appropriate accomodations and succeeding in school, why would anyone think of suing.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 and Classroom Tchrs DATE:96-10-16 01:04:48 EST FROM: MaryinNola
Find our who your states PTI (Parent Training and Information Center) is. They are usually wonderful organizations and are always quite anxious to inform one more parents of their rights.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Coordinator DATE:96-10-16 20:21:12 EST FROM: SpecEdT
Is the offer for 504 info still good? I will soon be on a 504 Committee as well and would like to broaden my knowledge base. Please send the information to Marla Campbell, 2815 Hartland Rd., Falls Church, VA 22043 Thank you!
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-17 08:23:25 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Making modifications and accomodations is not altering or changing your grading. "
Well sometimes it is... :) depending on how the IEP is written.
But modifying how the child produces an answer should have nothing to do with the grade. That would be like requiring oral reports and then grading off the child in the wheelchair because he didn't stand.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP!!spec ed in academic DATE:96-10-19 12:08:24 EST FROM: Lmazzola
Susan:
You are absoltely right. This happened with my 14 y.o. in Math. Because she only got B's in the previous year, she was recommended for a lower Math class for the following year. (She's on an IEP that said she has difficulty with multi-step math problems - this was noted back in 4th grade- and continues to follow her, even though Math is one of her strongest areas.)
I overrode their recommendation, to MUCH resistance, and she is doing great. I also believe it becomes a "numbers game" as well. If there are only so many spaces available in the higher class, then the B students will have to be placed in the lower class where there is more room.
Just my opinion, from experience.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-10-28 01:04:28 EST FROM: JHoltzi
What exactly is IDEA? My 16 1/2 yr- old son is ADD, and is really struggling with school. (5 F's at progress report time) Last year, the school dropped his IEP, since they said he no longer qualified, since he was (only) ADD, and no longer SED. I feel like I have to go through getting him qualified all over again. Is there a better way?
Judith
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-10-28 01:06:09 EST FROM: JHoltzi
What are sped services? Judith
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-10-28 07:36:39 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Last year, the school dropped his IEP, since they said he no longer qualified, since he was (only) ADD, and no longer SED. I feel like I have to go through getting him qualified all over again. Is there a better way?>>
That's highly illegal for a number of issues. 1) they cannot change his IEP without your agreement. Did they have an IEP meeting with you to do this? You are required to be included in IEP meetings. If not, they they are out of compliance. You must be given the opportunity to sign the form that you agree, or that you disagree (If you don't agree it's very important that you write that on the form and sign it).
2) ADD is covered under IDEA for some students under a category called Other Health Impaired. There is a Memorandum from the Office of Special Education and the Department of Civil Rights spelling this out. This memorandum was written in 1991 to clarify that children with ADD are protected under IDEA's Other Health Impaired or under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act (a civil rights law).
I would suggest that, IN WRITING, you request an IEP meeting to "officially" consider the IEP they closed (cc the Dir. of Spec. Ed in your district). If they refuse or they delay, then I would ask for (IN WRITING) for due process.
I would strongly encourage you to get two copies of the CHADD Educator's Manual. One for you and one for the school. Read yours first then give the other to the school and tell them you want to make sure you are both reading off of the same page. It costs about $12 and you can get copies from the distributor for CHADD. Call Caset at 1-800-545-5583. This is an important document for many reasons, but specifically for you I think you will find the sections on the laws that protect children with ADD interesting. There is also a copy of the Memorandum of 1991. And don't let them tell you that ADD is not a qualifying condition. It is. And, I think that your child has more than demonstrated that ADD is impacting his ability to perform in school. The federal government considers learning a major life activity. Your son's school is discriminating against him and violating his rights to access an education and his civil rights as a person with a disability.
Also, call NICHCY at 1-800-695-0285. This is the National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities. They have wonderful material, free, that you will find helpful. Tell them what is going on and they will supply you with materials pertinent to your problem.
Also, contact the Protection and Advocacy Office in your state. This is an office that is mandating through IDEA to exist to help provide information and support to families with disabled children. You can get the phone number for the office in your state by calling the national: 1-202-408-9514. The P&A offices are usually very good and can help you learn your child's rights. They might be able to supply you with names of advocates nearby you.
Also, local chapters of LDA (Learning Disabilities Association), often have advocates to help. Each state has an LDA headquarters, and then there are many chapters throughout the state.
Go get 'em tiger!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:96-10-28 11:28:44 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I feel like I have to go through getting him qualified all over again. Is there a better way?"
There may be. It may be too late to appeal dropping his IEP. Even if it isn't too late to do that, it's possible you could appeal and lose. Believe it or not, grades have nothing to do with IEP eligibility. It's possible that in spite of all his difficulties he no longer meets your state's definition of "learning disabled."
You could insist on an IEP based on the ADD, but it appears your district is not accustomed to doing that. I would also hazard a guess that they're not used to doing much in the way of modifications as it isn't typical in most places for a student with an IEP to receive a bunch of F's.
Get a copy of CHADD's book "EDUCATOR'S MANUAL." It's only $10 plus s/h and will give you a crash course on your son's educational rights.
Then insist on a 504 written for him immediately.
Post back here and tell us what contributes to his low grades and I bet some of us can make recommendations about the modifications to put into the 504. This will all make more sense after you've read the book, which isn't real big and is easy to read.
We also have some excellent files here in the Special Education library on ADD, education and 504's.
I wouldn't go in too belligerent. Unfortunately many schools aren't fully aware of their obligations to their students with ADD. ALthough that doesn't eliminate their responsibilities you may be able to accomplish your goals with polite persistence.
Given your son's age, if you can find an advocate or educational consultant who is knowledgeable about ADD it might be money well-spent.
Oh, yes-you can get CHADD's book by calling Caset Associates:
1-800-545-5583.
Let us hear back from you. We may be able to help more. :)
SUBJECT: Re:Help!! Spec ed DATE:96-11-01 19:18:57 EST FROM: Islelark
Again, thank everyone for their comments. Thought I'd let you know how it worked out. After three weeks the student was moved into the basic English class. The problem stemmed not only from not being able to formulate sentences and paragraphs to not being able to comprehend the material for the class. Even with support classes, extra help, alternative grading etc. - comprehension was still the major stumbling block - why did something happen, not just what happened. The parents saw the student struggling and felt that it was not worth the additional stress and strain as the student really tried but just could not do the work. I may have appeared very hard-nosed about this but as one of the people who was working with the student on a daily basis and witnessing this struggle first-hand I was almost angry with the parent for pushing the student in this way when it was so detrimental. The climax came when we produced the entrance qualifications at the local community college (the parent is determined the student should attend a four year college) and compared them to the student's work and the work of other fairly typical seniors. It was the parent's decision. I had called for a meeting but this change took place before that meeting occurred. I was not relieved, but sad when the student signed out. This was something I thought long and hard about before I did anything. But I couldn't stand by and watch one of my students self-destruct just to fulfill someone else's goals. It is a hollow feeling.
SUBJECT: Re:Help!! Spec ed DATE:96-11-01 20:53:13 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Thought I'd let you know how it worked out. After three weeks the student was moved into the basic English class. The problem stemmed not only from not being able to formulate sentences and paragraphs to not being able to comprehend the material for the class."
Thanks for letting us know.
" I may have appeared very hard-nosed about this but as one of the people who was working with the student on a daily basis and witnessing this struggle first-hand I was almost angry with the parent for pushing the student in this way when it was so detrimental."
No, I sensed genuine concern on your part. The parents are in a difficult situation, though... as I said my daughter got a 5 on the AP history test-
after being told she wasn't "good enough" to take the AP class (she managed to get in). Sometimes the best thing to do is to try.
It might not have just been to fulfill someone else's ambitions, though. If parents don't see a child's strengths, who will? They will come to grips with this, and ... you helped them.
SUBJECT: 504-retesting DATE:96-11-05 21:51:26 EST FROM: SGuilbeau
I am the 504 co-ordinator at my school. We are having a problem with retesting students. I would like to know if other school districts retest 504 students who make a "D' or "F' and if so how is this implemented. Some questions that I have received from teachers include:
How do I find the time to retest?
Isn't this student getting an unfair advantage rather than a level playing
field?
Step one of process is to identify student need and do an intervention for 15 days. If the interventions are successful they become accomodations. If the interventions are not successful we contact the parent and begin step two.
We have three more steps which may or may not include a referral to pupil appraisal.
The district policy states that "Interventions that result in continuing test modifications will require a complete 504 Evaluation for approval." In my opinion this can be oral tests, test given in parts, retesting, extended time on tests or ANY modification done on a test. If extended time is an intervention in step 1 and there is no need for step 2 -- I understand that this student must go all the way through the process just to get extended time on a test.
I know I am rambling but this is a pressing issue at my school. Any feedback from you would be greatly appreciated.
FYI-I work a a Catholic Middle School that has not had its records up to par; however, we are rectifying that by having a co-ordinator - I even have a 504 planning period (45 minutes alloted of which I usually spend my 504 period and my regular planning period on updating records and documenting) just to work with our 504 students and work on records. Trust me when I say that it will take all year to get them straight. My degree is in Special Education (thank god) and I have a daughter who has dyslexia, dysgraphia, and dyscalcula (any info on this).
I would also be interested in corresponding via e-mail with anyone in Louisiana on what you are doing in your school.
Thanks
SUBJECT: Re:504-retesting DATE:96-11-06 09:20:39 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I would like to know if other school districts retest 504 students who make a "D' or "F' and if so how is this implemented. Some questions that I have received from teachers include:
How do I find the time to retest?
Isn't this student getting an unfair advantage rather than a level playing field?"
A school should only have to "retest" once because of low test scores. After that they must look at the child, determine if the child knows the information or not, and then if he or she does (say by oral test you determine this) -- find a way to provide adequate testing for that student.
Throwing up your hands and saying "We can't do that" may land you in front of an adjuticor from the Office of Civil Rights who knows that many schools have figured it out.
Ex: the student can take the test in the library. EASY.
How does it level the playing field? Depends. Is their goal to find out what the child knows? If so there's no "playing field!" -- because it's not a contest between opponents.
If the child has the intelligence to learn and still gets D's and F's it is then the responsibility of the school to find ways to help this student learn better.
That's just how it is in 1996.
An excellent book for a school to get would be the INTERVENTIONS MANUAL from Hawthorne Educational Services, Inc. That book lists problems such as this, followed by solutions. Some lists contain more than 70 possibilities, and odds are that some of them will work within your school.
And if the first thing they try doesn't work, they have alternatives.
SUBJECT: Re: 504-retesting DATE:96-11-06 09:39:07 EST FROM: Lmazzola
<<"I would like to know if other school districts retest 504 students who make a "D' or "F' and if so how is this implemented.>>
My child is on an IEP, not 504, but is facing the same dilemma. It's not an occassional test, it's nearly every test she takes!! Yes, she's able to retake the test, but the retakes are never modified (they use the same formats, methods etc.) So what's the point? She RARELY does any better on the retake than she did on the original. What makes it even more frustrating is that I know that she knows the material, (I modify most of the work for her at home i.e. rewrite the questions in language she understands, highlight important words etc.) we even do "practice tests". I'm not saying that she always gets 100% correct, but she never totally flunks either.
To top it all off, she has to study/prepare for the next test while she is reviewing for the previous test and this is usually in all subjects! Under the circumstances, she's holding up quite well, despite these perceived failures. I keep telling her that she is smart, and that I'm working on getting the teachers to use alternative methods to find out how much she has learned.
I will most definately look into that book you mention Susan, it sounds like just what I'm looking for!
Lisa
SUBJECT: Re:504-retesting-LMazzola DATE:96-11-07 09:08:53 EST FROM: SusanS29
The book I mentioned is only available through Hawthorne Educational Services, INc.
So spare yourself the effort, and get their 800 number (sorry I don't have it handy) -- 800-555-1212 -- and order it from them.
Here's what I said:
"An excellent book for a school to get would be the INTERVENTIONS MANUAL from Hawthorne Educational Services, Inc. "
SUBJECT: Re:504-retesting-LMazzola DATE:96-11-07 20:31:52 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< The book I mentioned is only available through Hawthorne Educational Services, INc. So spare yourself the effort, and get their 800 number (sorry I don't have it handy) -- 800-555-1212 -- and order it from them.>>
Its the Attention Deficit Disorders Intervention Manual by Hawthorne Educational Services at 1-800-542-1673.
SUBJECT: Re:504 information DATE:96-11-07 20:44:02 EST FROM: LB529
I am a student researching the rights of the exceptional child in public education. Could anyone help me by sending me information on 504 and what rights is guarantees? I would appreciate any information possible.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-11-28 23:36:09 EST FROM: Teacher2M
It is my understanding within my district that if a student does not qualify for spec ed. services they are then submitted to a 504 plan. this student then can receive modifications that are appropiate for him/her, but they are not allowed to receive special ed. services.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-11-28 23:38:08 EST FROM: Teacher2M
They can only recieve services if the parent agrees to them.
SUBJECT: Looking For DATE:96-11-30 21:13:48 EST FROM: C Blatt
The 1973 Act is Law # 2 or people with disabilities and the ADA is law #3 but the developmental disbaility is law #4 and what do you know about it if you line in NYS. e. Mail me at c. Blatt and let me know.
SUBJECT: Re:Looking For DATE:96-11-30 22:42:21 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<The 1973 Act is Law # 2 or people with disabilities and the ADA is law #3 but the developmental disbaility is law #4 and what do you know about it if you line in NYS. e. Mail me at c. Blatt and let me know.>>
I have no idea what all this is supposed to mean?!
For a good "tour" through the laws effecting children with disabilities in schools please see the file in the Special Education Library "What Do The Laws Say?"
SUBJECT: Re:504 information DATE:96-12-01 20:43:35 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< Could anyone help me by sending me information on 504 and what rights is guarantees? >>
504 is Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (and it's amendments). It is a general disabilities civil rights law that is to prevent discrimination of individuals with disabilities in institutions that receive federal money, like a school. It means that the school must provide to the disabled student the same "access" to their services (education) that the non-disabiled student has.
You can call or write to the Office of Civil Rights and they can set you a Q & A Handbook explaining Section 504 a whole lot better than this!
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-12-01 20:45:28 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<It is my understanding within my district that if a student does not qualify for spec ed. services they are then submitted to a 504 plan. This student then can receive modifications that are appropiate for him/her, but they are not allowed to receive special ed. services.>>
This is pretty much correct. Disabled students who are not found eligible under one of the specific categories of IDEA but are still considered disabled, can receive special accommodatioons under Section 504, usually in the regular classroom. Students can, however, receive special education and related services under 504 it that is what is needed to meet their needs.
SUBJECT: 504 and Catholic Schools DATE:96-12-03 06:36:37 EST FROM: MaryinNola
I'd just like to give all of you an update from previous postings and help all of you have given me. The catholic school 504 case I was working with was recently reviewed by OCR. OCR in Dallas took the position that the school did not receive the necessary "requiste" funds. We still aren't sure what that is suppose to be. The school definately receives federal funds, buy OCR is basically telling us now that they must be program specific. This goes against everything we've ever been told in the past. We have been repeatedly told in the past that even if they only receive federal money for lunch program, they still have to comply.
Well folks, apparently the corrupt state of Louisiana has once again figured out a way not to comply with the system and OCR is supporting it. The final outcome from OCR is that they will review each case from the Metropolitan New Orleans area individually. I think this is one time we don't want individuality. We just want them to play by the rules.
Anyone has suggestions, agrees with OCR, or ever appeal and OCR decision?
Thanks
Mary
SUBJECT: Needs a 504? DATE:96-12-03 17:03:20 EST FROM: GlynFP1
After perusing the many message boards in this Special Ed. forum for the last several weeks I am beginning to believe that my third grade son is dysgraphic. The last bit of advice offered me (on a message board) was that my son needed a 504. I feel like I've gotten too involved in this whole thing and can't see the proverbial forest for the trees. Does he have a problem or is he lazy? (I think it's mostly the former, and some of the latter.) Anyway, he gets straight A's. He's a model school citizen. He already has an IEP for the gifted program. This writing thing is getting worse. How do I approach the school about a 504? Do I talk to his teacher first? The Special Ed. teacher? Counselor? His teacher does say that writing is his "Achilles' heel." and she supposedly will be helping him out. I don't see it happening yet. He never has to write. He continues to get A's on papers, even though his written expression is not up to his potential. Will these people greet me with incredulity? He covers for himself so well because he is bright and verbal. I think they'll think I'm yet another hysterical parent. His teacher casually mentioned that he wouldn't be well served in the LD program, which I think is true. He wouldn't qualify. They'd just look at his straight A's and see that he's in the enrichment program and say, "what's the problem?. It sounds as if a 504 is something that would allow him to get some extra help without being identified LD. Am I right? I know I've rambled on here, but I'm just so tired of dealing with this and I just want to get my son out of his misery! His teacher hasn't mentioned 504. Is it in all the school systems? We're in Northern Virginia in the Washington, DC metro area.
Thanks.
Glyn
SUBJECT: Re:504 and Catholic Schools DATE:96-12-03 19:31:53 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Anyone has suggestions, agrees with OCR, or ever appeal and OCR decision?>>
Your statement about OCR wanting to take each case individually is contrary to the latest information from OCR! They have stated that to deal with each case individually is slow and cumbersome and that they are sort of saving complaints from districts and when they have enough to move efficiently will do so. In the meantime, they are keeping track, offering advise, etc.
My guess is that they are leary of touching this situation because the religous school thing - separation of church and state and all that, and may have been looking for an out.
I have hard that if the school is receiving federal money for a "program" that they are obligated to follow 504 - like perhaps a student loan program or a lunch program.... but getting some dollars for some part of something doesn't count.
Perhaps you call the Department of Justice in Washington, DC and review the situation with them. Remind them that this school is receiving public money and should have some sort of responsibility under Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act or Section 504. The Dept. of Justice oversees the Office of Civil Rights.
Just play "Columbo" asking questions and seeking clarification until they've answered ALL of your questions.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Coordinator DATE:96-12-03 19:33:43 EST FROM: Pnj13
Please send me information on 504. Thank you, Pnj13
SUBJECT: Re:Needs a 504? DATE:96-12-03 19:35:35 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< He already has an IEP for the gifted program. This writing thing is getting worse. How do I approach the school about a 504?>>
If he has an IEP is it under IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act)? One can have either an IEP/IDEA or a 504 Plan - not both.
Basically, what a child with dysgraphic problems needs are some specific accommodations and interventions that can be handled in the regular education classroom by the teacher.
There is a good book that offers some wonderful and easy "tricks" to use to help a child struggling to write. It's called Taming the Dragons: Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setley and can be ordered from Hawthorne Educational catalog at 1-800-542-1673.
Is the school doing anything to encourage and foster keyboarding skills?
SUBJECT: Re: 504 DATE:96-12-03 21:29:37 EST FROM: Jheaney46
I would urge regular educators to become aware of learning styles and the individual needs of 504 students. They are responsible for developing appropriate modifications and implementing them, often with support of a content mastery program.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-12-03 22:38:54 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Regular education teachers should become more aware of learning differences, you are sooo correct. They also need help in implementing what they know. They need materials, in some cases. They need help in the classroom in other cases. They need someone to help them make the adjustments. All of this takes time, time they may not have after working with their 30 children. That is what the regular education teacher need. Oh, and one more thing, being thought of as a full member of the team. Thank you for being aware of some of the problems.
SUBJECT: Re:Needs a 504?/Ratatat DATE:96-12-04 14:40:18 EST FROM: GlynFP1
Actually, I am mistaken. What my son has is an INP (Individual Needs Plan) for the gifted program. He used to have an IEP for Speech Therapy, but that was done with at the end of first grade (he's in third grade now.) So, no he does not currently have an IEP.
As for keyboarding...in third grade the kids begin keyboarding skills in the computer lab. My son's teacher suggested he do as much keyboarding as possible at home. He works on it two or three times a week at home for about 20 minutes each session. Writing, or I should say, written expression is so much NOT a part of his life at this point that he can't think of anything to type. He seems interested in getting an e-mail penpal. Maybe this will help. He also will usually respond well to a teacher if she gives him a "special" assignment. Unfortunately she hasn't done so this year. Forget it if I suggest something!
Back to 504. Are they common knowledge? If I mention it to his teacher will she look at me with glazed eyes?
Thanks.
Glyn
SUBJECT: Re:Needs a 504?/Ratatat DATE:96-12-05 09:49:30 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Back to 504. Are they common knowledge? If I mention it to his teacher will she look at me with glazed eyes?>>
Hopefully, they won't look at your with glazed eyes, but I've known of stranger things happening!!
Before your child can be eligible for a 504 Plan he needs to have been diagnosed disability that is interferring with his ability to function in the educational setting. As far as I know dysgraphia qualifies, and a 504 plan would be appropriate. If it has not yet occurred, your child probably needs to be evaluated to explore this concern in an "official" way. You should write a letter (always put your requests in writing about this stuff) and request that your child be evaluated for dysgraphia and for consideration of accommodations under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.
SUBJECT: Re: Needs a 504?/Ratatat DATE:96-12-06 05:24:35 EST FROM: RNerenbaum
RATATAT,
Could you please explain the difference in and IEP and a 504 Plan. There is a friend of mine that would like to have this information. And quite frankly, I have never heard of a 504 Plan until I got my computer and started reading these posts, unless my school system call it something else. I am a very involved parent and and shocked that I have no idea what this is.
Thanks a bunch
Sara Nerenbaum.
SUBJECT: Re:Needs a 504?/Ratatat DATE:96-12-06 05:27:03 EST FROM: RNerenbaum
No need to reply to message. I just found the answer to my question in another post.
SUBJECT: 504 in middle school DATE:96-12-06 18:35:12 EST FROM: LAUB4
Would like to know if 504's are followed at the middle school level. I'm very worried about my son who's plan is barely being followed now in 5th grade.
Who monitors it in middle school,not the sped teacher?E-mail me at Laub4
SUBJECT: Re: 504 in middle school DATE:96-12-06 19:28:27 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Would like to know if 504's are followed at the middle school level. I'm very worried about my son who's plan is barely being followed now in 5th grade. Who monitors it in middle school,not the sped teacher?>>
Yes, 504's are followed in middle schools and high schools, or should be in the United States! They are also covered in public universities and colleges.
Any variety of individual on the staff could be the 504 coordinator, but the school is required to have someone who is the "504 Coordinator." Your districts written 504 procedures will spell this out. They are required to have written 504 procedures and safeguards, and must make copies available to any parent that asks.
SUBJECT: Ratio between 504 & IDEA DATE:96-12-19 00:02:38 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
I'm just curious. Has there ever been an established "best-practice" ratio between the number of 504 plans and IEPs written in a given school district? It would seem to me that there would be a far greater number of 504s.
coteachnet
SUBJECT: Re:Ratio between 504 & IDEA DATE:96-12-19 01:17:13 EST FROM: Socadream
cotachnet, your ratio seems very logical to me. I questioned this at my school district (of 83,000 kids) two years ago and quess what? We had roughly 6,700 spec. ed. students and, according to our "504 coordinator", only 4 "504" kids. Shocking. isn't it?
SUBJECT: Re:Ratio between 504 & IDEA DATE:96-12-19 09:03:23 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
** It would seem to me that there would be a far greater number of 504s. **
I would agree there should be more "504's" than IEP's. Last year I asked our director how many 504's were written in our district which at the time was ZIP! Currently, in a district of 3,400 we have 42 IEP's and only 1 written 504 plan.
SUBJECT: Re:Ratio between 504 & IDEA DATE:96-12-19 16:33:19 EST FROM: Jackterr
Special Education IEPs are for those students who have a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits learning. ALL Special Education students are disabled and are protected from discrimination by section 504. Students who are found, through an evaluation conducted by the school, to be disabled in major life activity other than learning won't qualify for Special Education, but may qualify as disabled under section 504. Qualifying as disabled under section 504 will only provide accommodation if it is necessary to combat discrimination.
You would expect the vast majority of students with a substantial limitation in learning to be in Special Education. Those disabled students classified as disabled exclusively under 504 would include those who were disabled in major life activities other than learning, along with the few non-Special Education disabled in the major life activity of learning.
SUBJECT: 504 Defined DATE:96-12-19 17:08:41 EST FROM: Ratatat
Well, you've got is mostly right. Here's something I've been working on for just the purpose of clarifying these two laws. Hope it helps.
Civil Rights Laws are federal laws derived directly from the U.S. Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, which all public school districts are obligated to follow. These laws protect a student's rights to receive a discrimination-free public education regardless of the severity of their disability. Any public school that receives any kind of federal money must follow these civil rights laws. These laws are universal and do not provide a school with additional funding for compliance with them. School districts are absolutely obligated under civil rights laws to accommodation students with disabilities. The two civil rights laws that impact students in schools are Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.
P.L. 93-112, The Rehabilitation Act of 1973. This law is important because it addresses discrimination against people with disabilities. The most significant portion of this law is Section 504: Non-Discrimination under Federal Grants.
Section 504 provides individuals with disabilities basic civil rights protections in programs that receive federal financial assistance, such as public schools. The law states that a school may not discriminate against an individual who has, or is perceived to have, a disability. The law states that individuals with disabilities may not be "excluded from the participation of, or denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination" in any program or activity that receives federal funding. Under Section 504 the schools are required to evaluate any student who is suspected of having a disability, and provide reasonable accommodations for that student should the student be found to have a disability and is not specifically covered under IDEA. Further, schools may not deny children with disabilities special education services under Section 504 merely because a students fails to be eligible for special education services under IDEA. It mandates that the school must meet the needs of students with disabilities in the regular classroom through reasonable accommodations to the maximum extent possible. This may include special education support and related services, should they be needed. This law requires that students with disabilities must have access to and benefit from the education and programs offered by the school to the same extent as students without disabilities. To be eligible for protections under Section 504 an individual must meet the definition of a disabled person which means that they must have an impairment (mental or physical) that substantially limits a major life function, such as learning. Section 504 covers only individuals with disabilities who are not otherwise qualified for other programs such as the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
An important document, the Memorandum of 1991 from the Office of Special Education and Rehabilitative Services of the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights, was written to provide a clarification of federal policy to address the needs of children with Attention Deficit Disorders within general and/or special education. In this document, the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights made it clear that children with Attention Deficit Disorders are can be eligible for and receive protection under Section 504 as disabled individuals. (The memorandum also states that children with Attention Deficit Disorders may be found eligible for special education and related services under the Other Health Impaired Category of IDEA.)
SUBJECT: 504 & IDEA DATE:96-12-19 17:09:08 EST FROM: Ratatat
WHAT DO IDEA AND SECTION 504 HAVE IN COMMON?
IDEA and Section 504 strengthen each other in important ways. They both call for school systems to carry out a systematic search for every child with a disability in need of a public education under a provision called "child find." They both mandate a Free and Appropriate Public Education (FAPE) regardless of the nature and severity of an individual's disability. And, they both make it clear that education and related services must be provided at no cost to parents. Section 504 and IDEA both have similar requirements to assure that testing and evaluation of a child's needs are not based on a single test or testing instrument, and they both emphasize the importance of educating children and youth with their non-disabled peers to the maximum extent appropriate.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Defined DATE:96-12-19 19:20:20 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
An excellent description of the two significant laws that govern students with learning difficulties. The one thing I can add is that from an attorneys prospective the 504 laws seem to be getting more attention from the legal community.
That seems to be for a number of reasons. One seems to be it is easier to find a "significant impairment" on the life function of education under 504, that fit into the 13 catagries of the IDEA rules. Another is that from an attorney's perspective, 504 includes the recovery of reaosnable attorneys fees (as a civil rights act) AND the possibility of money damages for a violation of a students and parents civil rights. At the same time, the schools seem to shy away from 504 as they see it as additional work and liability with no additional state or federal money.
All in all, the major focus of my receent cases have been 504 based.
SUBJECT: 504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:96-12-20 00:07:38 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
I was told that, as classroom teachers, we should be modifiying the curriculum to address the needs of individual children as part of "good teaching". Therefore, referring a child who needs these modifications from year to year would be redundant and a waste of paper and time. It also could become a nightmare to keep up with, from an administrative standpoint, if each one of these 504 plans needed to be updated every year. Any thoughts?
SUBJECT: Re:504 Defined DATE:96-12-20 02:24:45 EST FROM: SusanS29
"That seems to be for a number of reasons."
I think there's one more reason, one a lawyer might not be fully aware of. So I hope I can share with you and in that way repay you in some small way for all the help you've been!
When a student has an IEP the parent is handed step-by-step guides-how to challenge the IEP, the diagnosis-anything about the IEP process. If they have a grievance, they have a roadmap.
Whereas-filing a grievance over a 504 is like trying to cross the Sahara with a compass-but North is always moving.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:96-12-20 02:26:17 EST FROM: SusanS29
"It also could become a nightmare to keep up with, from an administrative standpoint, if each one of these 504 plans needed to be updated every year. Any thoughts?"
A 504 ensures that the child who clearly has special needs will get modifications that suit his particular needs (neither too much nor too little) and not just whatever bias the teacher brings.
I knew a RESOURCE TEACHER once who taught phonics and spelling to all students who came to her at 9AM-even if their IEP had math goals, not phonics and spelling.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:96-12-24 23:41:56 EST FROM: MarRigby
CoTeachNet:
You would be shocked at the number of classroom teachers who refuse to deviate from the curriculum! Classroom teachers from states that have mastery tests are afraid to deviate from the curriculum. Some teachers think that if their students have learning problems, they should become Special Ed. students, which takes the load off their shoulders.
This may be off-topic a bit, but I truly feel that if Kindergartens went back into the business of developmental skills: (readiness, socialization, gross/fine motor activity), there would be less academic failure so early in life. Less social/emotional problems as well! School districts are sanctioning failure just by their insistence in providing academic tasks to children before they are ready.
SUBJECT: Answers on 504 DATE:96-12-26 20:46:46 EST FROM: PTomlan
There's lots of guidance available in the "Compliance with the ADA" manual that's available. Each public school district (I understand) is entitled to one free copy... call 1-800-949-4232 for yours. It's a complex process, but this ADA manual is the same reference material OCR is using as they assist districts following complaints. Well worth the phone call. PST Educational Consultants had developed complimentary materials to help schools reach the goals set out in these ADA guidelines... e-mail Info504@aol.com. Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-12-28 20:14:13 EST FROM: CURDCO
I am a junior special education major at Xavier University. I am interested in any information regarding the policy and procedure of 504 in the school system. Information can be sent to 571236@xavier.xu.edu Thank you!
SUBJECT: Re: 504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:96-12-28 20:32:36 EST FROM: Nolesdunn
To: susanS29
Aren't we really talking about an I.E.P. based on the civil rights law 504 the same way IDEA makes an IEP for students with disabilities? The difference being, 504=504 plan. I see in writing both that some accommodations are present in both individual plans especially when you define ADD as other health impaired. Please answer! Nolesdunn AOL
SUBJECT: Who determines? DATE:96-12-28 20:43:38 EST FROM: Nolesdunn
Please help! I was in a special education teaming the other day, and I was terrified to learn that an advocate mainly addressing ADHD/504 concerns stated that a parent of a child can requst a 504 meeting even without a qualified examiner's statement of an existing health condition? In this case, 504, I was told that the law is not clear on who determines in direct contrast to the "13" defined by IDEA there is a qualified examiner listed for each. Please response to: Nolesdunn AOL Thanks:)
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:96-12-29 00:08:14 EST FROM: SusanS29
Noles in some schools an IEP and a 504 are virtually the same.
In some districts they place all children who need help and have ADHD but no LD as "OHI."
Each state and each district are free to go the way they choose to. In some places, an IEP and a 504 are virtually the same, but not everywhere.
LEGALLY they are governed by entirely different laws, so if a problem erupts they can be markedly different.
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:96-12-29 00:11:52 EST FROM: SusanS29
I'm not sure what you mean by "qualified examiner."
504's are governed by entirely different laws than IEP's and that's probably why you;re seeing differences.
Essentially if the child has a diagnosis of ADHD from anyone competent to make such a diagnosis, the school has to go along with that professional opinion. And ADHD can be diagnosed by a variety of professionals: some social workers, child psychologists, psychiatrists, pediatricians, neurologists... there's a list of 'em.
Each specialty brings its strengths and weaknesses, and there is no one perfect person to diagnose it. The social worker knows of multiple resources for support help of many kinds if needed. The child psychologist can put behavior plans in place. The neurologist looks at the child without any "coloration" or bias from one school of psychology or another. Etc.
SUBJECT: Re: Who determines? DATE:96-12-29 22:24:23 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
As an advocate and attorney, when representing clients of ADHD children, the way we go sometimes depends on the severity the ADHD has on the child. The more sever, the more likely we will go the POHI route v 504.
However, if the District has been playing games with the parent or child, I go the 504 route. I have essentially the same program for the child, BUT, if the District failed to accomodate the child when they "knew or had reason to know" they likely violated a civil rights law. Under IDEA besides a proper program, the child can be awarded compensatory education, under 504 it can include compensatory ed and money damages.
Also, Districts can elect to use the IDEA procedures and guidelines as one way to satisfy the 504 requirements.
Hope this helps you understand why the advocate may have went the 504 route rather than trying to fit the child into one of the 13 spec ed IDEA catagories (likely SED or POHI).
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:96-12-30 00:38:05 EST FROM: SEMPERLOST
Heard a lawyer address this issue . . . since schools perform educational functions as opposed to medical functions, they do not need medical diagnosis. So you basically have to be able to say that the kid has characteristics of a certain disorder (such as ADHD or Dyslexia) in order to meet the first half of the eligibility criteria for 504. The second half (substantial limitation) is something we educators are much more familiar with doing. The key is documenting both how you as a committee determined that the characteristics of such and such a disability are exhibited and how they substantially limit the student's ability to participate in a major life activity . . . which is way above and beyond academics. Its a documentation nightmare!
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:96-12-31 13:40:40 EST FROM: Member7375
I would greatly appreciate an email address in order to obtain a copy of NY State Dept. O Ed's memorandum on what's required under section 504. Can you help?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-01 01:25:29 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
<<memorandum on what's required under section 504.>>
Section 504 is a federal civil rights law. Try this internet address....http://www.ed.gov/offices/OCR/ I think it may be of some help. You may also like to ask your local school district for a copy their 504 policy and procedures manual.
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:97-01-01 09:22:08 EST FROM: BLevine794
IN ORDER FOR A 504 PLAN TO BE WRITTEN THERE MUST BE WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION. NO QUESTION ABOUT THIS. THANK YOU : DR. LEVINE
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-01 09:26:37 EST FROM: BLevine794
ITS VERY SIMPLE: THEY ARE TWO VERY SPECIFIC LAWS AND BOTH CALL FOR MODIFICATIONS. ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE CALL 0R E-MAIL ME. I HAVE A RAIDO SHOW
DEALING WITH SPECIAL NEEDS AND WE COVER THIS TOPIC ON A WEEKLY BASIS. WANT TO CALL THE SHOW. CONTACT ME OR E- MAIL ME. THX DR LEVINE
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-01 09:37:46 EST FROM: BLevine794
sorry about the mispelling on radio but seriously don't separate the intent of both laws. they provide very concrete help for children and adults and especially at the college level. i am a former director of special education, school principal, chairman of child study teams, and a reading specialist. i also host a radio talk show. i represent parents all over the us writing iep's and 504 plans. .any concerns glad to help you if i can. thx : doctor levine: excuse any spelling errors i am not a typist but just joined aol and found this area by chance. if you are concerned about my spelling just consider me dyslexic which by the way is my speciality.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-02 00:05:52 EST FROM: GeorgiaC4
Member,
Here's a web address that has the 1991 Memorandum from the
Department Of Education. http://www.chadd.org/doememo.htm
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-06 18:23:46 EST FROM: Jackterr
You should be referring only those students who you believe might need help beyond your good teaching practices. If it is determined through a school evaluation that a student has a disability, and not just an impairment, accommodation might be appropriate to protect against discrimination.
If an impairment exists that does not "substantially limit a major life activity" such as learning, section 504 does not apply. For a student who is determined to be disabled under 504, but not under IDEA, there is no legal requirement to periodically review accommodations. If you determine that a current accommodation needs to be changed you can do that by giving notice of the change to the parent.
Not everyone who has a physical or mental impairment has a disability. Section 504 only comes into play when there is a disability, and then only to protect that disabled individual from discrimination based on that disability. For example the vast majority of individuals diagnosed with ADHD are not disabled, and are not protected by section 504.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-06 18:32:39 EST FROM: Jackterr
There is no requirement in section 504 that there be an IEP, or even that accommodations be written. Because there is no requirement under 504 for parent permission, parent involvement, written plans, or meetings of any kind it would not be the route to Special Education. For a child to be placed in special education they must qualify under IDEA. However, I cannot think of an instance where a child truely had a physical or mental impairment that substantially limited learning who could not be qualified under one of the 13 categories of IDEA.
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:97-01-12 10:29:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I was in a special education teaming the other day, and I was terrified to learn that an advocate mainly addressing ADHD/504 concerns stated that a parent of a child can requst a 504 meeting even without a qualified examiner's statement of an existing health condition?>>
To be elibilgle for services under Section 504 the person must have a diagnosed disability that is interferring with a major life function (in the school situation that is their 'learning.') The types of disabilities that are considered qualifying for Section 504 are things like long - but the bottom line is that their must be supporting documentation from a practitioner that the person has 'said' disability.
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:97-01-12 10:33:02 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I was told that the law is not clear on who determines in direct contrast to the "13" defined by IDEA there is a qualified examiner listed for each. >>
IDEA has very specific categories that a child has to "fit into" in order to be found eligible to receive special education services.
Section 504 is a general disabilities civil rights law that says a school must provide accommodations to support a student who has a disability. The students who have disabling conditions that do not fall under one of the specific categories but is still suffering a significant impact on their learning would fall under Section 504.
Sometimes, however, these children are so effected that the accommodations that are provided under Section 504 are insufficient and the child needs the protection and services available under IDEA. In that case, the child could be found eligible under the "Other Health Impaired" category of IDEA.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-12 10:38:12 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<For example the vast majority of individuals diagnosed with ADHD are not disabled, and are not protected by section 504.>>
Wrong! Check out the memorandum of September 1991 by the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights. You will find that since the schools are required to provide a free and appopriate education to ALL students, not providing a student with ADD with an appropriate set of accommodations so that they can learn would be considered discriminatory.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-12 10:42:31 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<There is no requirement in section 504 that there be an IEP, or even that accommodations be written. Because there is no requirement under 504 for parent permission, parent involvement, written plans, or meetings of any kind it would not be the route to Special Education. >>
This is not quite accurate. The Office of Civil Rights and the Department of Education have written a memorandum to clarify this issue, and in that memorandum include samples of what classroom accommodations for a student with ADD might look like.
The Office of Civil rights also state that though Section 504 doesn't have any specific requirements concerning parental involvement they recommend that schools follow the example of IDEA for same.
In addition, there are other federal laws that make it mandatory for the school to ask for and receive consent before evaluating.
No prudent school would proceed with a 504 plan without involving the parents. It's would put the school at risk later on to do such a thing.
Also, every school district is required under Section 504 to have a set or procedures and safeguards formall written and copies available to all that ask. Do not do this is a violation of this important federal disabilities civil rights law.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-12 11:55:27 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
Ratatat is right. I represent a parent who likely will collect thousands in comp ed, support services, atty fees and likely 504/ADA money damages because they failed to evaluate a studen, "when they knew or reasonably should have known" of their disability prior to a permanet expulsion..
Here, a written ADHD diagnosis with possible LD noted along with increasing misconduct.
By not using the IDEA procedures, including written IEP type "accomodation" plan, etc. as "suggested" in the 504 language as one way to meet 504, the District now has the full burden to prove they did not discriminate.
I would think district's would not take the risk, BUT everday I recieve calls from parents telling me different. I guess once a District goes through a full due process litigation and then on to federal court (as they generally refuse to willingly pay the parent's legal fees) they change their ways. And that I am pleased to say, was the orginal intent of all these special ed and civil rights laws anyway.
SUBJECT: Legal Protection for Tchr. DATE:97-01-12 20:05:30 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
If a classroom or any teacher working with a needy child strongly feels a student would qualify for a 504 plan especially after that child was determined ineligible under IDEA, but the school district disagrees, for his/her protection, can or should the teacher file a letter stating basically that s/he "tried" to get the child some help, but it was refused by the district? If this child's parents were to bring legal action against a district later for noncompliance, could teachers be brought into this litigation if such a letter didn't exist? If one should be written, where should it be filed? In the student's Confidential File or is that just for IDEA forms?
SUBJECT: Re:Legal Protection for Tchr DATE:97-01-13 16:06:22 EST FROM: RhoLaren
BigJohnEsq
Had the school tried to evaluate the child and the parents refused? Sometimes that happens. If that were the case, would the school system still be liable?
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-13 18:42:07 EST FROM: Jackterr
iF YOU READ THE JOINT MEMO ON ADHD YOU WILL SEE THAT IT SAYS THAT A STUDENT WITH ADHD MAY BE DISABLED UNDER THE IDEA CATEGORIES OF SED, SLD, OR OTHER HEALTH IMPAIRED iF THEY ALSO MEET THE REQUIREMENTS OF IDEA. (Sorry my caps lock button was down) The vast majority of persons labled ADHD are not disabled under 504 or IDEA because their physical or mental impairment does no substantially limit a major life activity such as learning. It is a mistake to assume that a diagnosis alone qualifies one as disabled.
The sample memorandom referrs to those individuals who are disabled by the ADHD. The accommodations listed are just good teaching practices and are used by good teachers every day to deal with individual differences in their classes. Also the office of Civil rights may reccommend anything , however, the law sets the requirements.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-13 18:53:07 EST FROM: Jackterr
<< You will find that since the schools are required to provide a free and appopriate education to ALL students, not providing a student with ADD with an appropriate set of accommodations so that they can learn would be considered discriminatory.>>
All students are not guaranteed an appropriate education. This guarantee is only made to those students who are disabled under IDEA, or disabled, and being discriminated against, under section 504. These laws are not in force unless there is a disability. Treating someone as if they are disabled when they are not is a form of discrimination.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-13 22:01:38 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<The sample memorandom referrs to those individuals who are disabled by the ADHD. The accommodations listed are just good teaching practices and are used by good teachers every day to deal with individual differences in their classes. Also the office of Civil rights may reccommend anything , however, the law sets the requirements.>>
If one's ADD symptoms are significant enough to receive a diagnosis (remember, to be diagnosed the symptoms have to be created a problem compared to same aged peers), then one would expect the child to have official protection to be guaranteed his/her civil rights against discrimination through appropriate accommodations in a 504 plan.
That memorandum is a statement by the Department of Education and the Office of Civil Rights to clarify POLICY of the federal government. If there were any question about intepretation of intent of IDEA or 504 with regards to children with ADD, that memorandum would be referred to for clarification.
That's how it works.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-13 22:05:08 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<All students are not guaranteed an appropriate education. >>
Every child in this country is guaranteed a free and appropriate public education.
Historically, it was the children with disabilities and learning problems who were being denied access to this guarantee.
So, now we have amended laws to spell the guarantees out and to provide regulations to protect the guarantees for those who have been discriminated against for so long (and still are).
You are right, to treat someone who is NOT disabled as such is discrimination.
But, most of the time, I'm talking to parents who's children's disabilities are not being acknowledged properly, nor or they having their needs met and are, in fact, being disciminated against in their pursuit of their FAPE because of disciminatory practices.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-14 00:30:55 EST FROM: SusanS29
"The vast majority of persons labled ADHD are not disabled under 504 or IDEA because their physical or mental impairment does no substantially limit a major life activity such as learning. It is a mistake to assume that a diagnosis alone qualifies one as disabled."
This simply isn't true. The great majority of people with ADHD will have significant difficulty learning at some point in their educational career.
Socially (another important area) many will have severe difficulties. It simply isn't accurate to say the great majority have no significant impairment. In fact, ADHD can't even be diagnosed unless significant impairment is present.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-14 15:16:06 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<If one's ADD symptoms are significant enough to receive a diagnosis (remember, to be diagnosed the symptoms have to be created a problem compared to same aged peers), then one would expect the child to have official protection to be guaranteed his/her civil rights against discrimination through appropriate accommodations in a 504 plan.>>
The existence of an impairment (physical or mental) does not in and of itself, qualify someone as disabled. See 104.35 (b) evaluation procedures, to see how a student is determined to be eligible for protection against discrimination under 504. A Doctor can determine the existence of an impairment, he or she cannot determine the existence of a disability.
<<Every child in this country is guaranteed a free and appropriate public education.>>
If you could give me a legal cite on this statement I would appreciate it. I have never seen this claim before.
<<Socially (another important area) many will have severe difficulties. It simply isn't accurate to say the great majority have no significant impairment. In fact, ADHD can't even be diagnosed unless significant impairment is present.>>
The majority of children diagnosed with ADHD are not diagnosed correctly. Diagnoses are made by Drs./Psychs/neighbors/parents with little regard to the criteria for making the diagnosis. ADHD is one of the most abused diagnoses going. With proper training and an in-depth review of evaluation data the diagnosis can be confirmed. However, those evaluators are too few in number. It is still too easy to get the diagnosis if you have the 60$ and the urge. The DSM - IV NOW requires significant problems. (How many pre DSM -IV diagnoses have been revisited?) Children who truely have ADHD range from mild to severe. Those that have severe attention problems might qualify for special education. Those with mild ADHD are probably not substantially limited in learning.
Section 504 only does ONE thing. It protects Disabled individuals from being discriminated against, based on that disability. It does not protect individuals who just have an impairment. The Fed. Regs. (104) prescribe the process for determining if a student is disabled.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-14 16:59:22 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<The Fed. Regs. (104) prescribe the process for determining if a student is disabled.>>
Yes, I now they do. But, remember those regs are guarded by the Office of Civil Rights, and Section 504 reg are also guarded by the Department of Education. Those two agencies, together, have clarfied the government's policy on ADD and how it relates to Section 504 (and IDEA).
They have truly made it very clear that if a child's ADD is impacting their learning, then they are eligible for a formal education plan to protect their right to access.
Access = non-discimination.
Impairment = disability
Think of the accommodations like a ramp would be for child in a wheelchair who has a physical impariment. The ramp allows that child access into the building to and therefore access to the education the school offers.
Accommodations in the classroom under Section 504 are simply the "ramp" that the child impaired with ADD needs to have to access the education the school is offering.
And remember, I am basing my definition of ADD on a proper diagnosis from a comprehensive set of assessments and evaluated by an experienced practitioner. It's from a complete evaluation that one receives a reliable differential diagnosis. And, if one's ADD symptoms are notable enough to lead to a diagnosis from this kind of evaluation, then one's ADD is impairing. I promise you.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-14 17:22:32 EST FROM: SusanS29
"The existence of an impairment (physical or mental) does not in and of itself, qualify someone as disabled."
NO ONE DISAGREES WITH THAT. What we disagree with it the notion that ADHD brings no significant impairment to the majority of children with it. That simply isn't true.
"<<Every child in this country is guaranteed a free and appropriate public education.>>
If you could give me a legal cite on this statement I would appreciate it. I have never seen this claim before."
IDEA.
"The majority of children diagnosed with ADHD are not diagnosed correctly."
We're not really talking about diagnosis; we're talking about impairment- which is what leads to the diagnosis. If the child has significant problems, those problems need to be addressed.
"The DSM - IV NOW requires significant problems."
Significant level of problems have always been required. If it ain't significant, it ain't diagnosable.
"Those that have severe attention problems might qualify for special education. Those with mild ADHD are probably not substantially limited in learning."
The great majority of children are inbetween. They don't need special education, but they do have significant problems. Those children are the ones protected by 504, because those in special education are already covered by IDEA, and those who have no school impairment have no need of protection.
SUBJECT: locating a copy DATE:97-01-16 19:56:46 EST FROM: CCibik
How can I obtain copy of the 504 regulations and procedures through the use of my compute ?
SUBJECT: Re:Legal Protection for Tchr DATE:97-01-16 20:23:19 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
This is a tough one. Some cases read the IDEA law as requiring the District to go ahead (under "child find") and petition the court for permission to test, others say if parents refuse District not liable.
I have also seen a case or two where the parent claims the District testing will harm the child and want the District to use their private tests. Again, these issues usually come up when parent is trying to back bill school for thousands for private care. The other scenario I see is that a parent doesn't say/write the magic wrods "I demand an evaluation" and the District takes that as a refusal to allow an evaluation. Every time I have had one of those I won, as child find clearly places the burden on the school to locate and evaluate.
Finally, I would personally be very leery of taking a case where the parent would not allow the District to evaluate their child. After all, educating ALL children is their responsibility and specialty.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-16 20:25:39 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
I agree - generally the independent ADHD diagnosis should be enough to have a District formally evaluate for IDEA eligibility and 504 accomodations. BUT, as you start, the majority of times the student with ADHD/ADD is not impacted enough by their disease to warrant any accomodations, much less special d eligibility under POHI.
SUBJECT: Re:504 v. Classroom Mods DATE:97-01-16 20:33:32 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
There is actually a follow-up memo to the 1991 memo that clarifies even further that an ADHD diagnosis is just one part of the puzzle. District needs to look at all aspects of student to determne how to proceed.
At the same time, I would never rely on a pre-screening denial of eligibility as enough to protect District. It is my opinion that a District needs to always provide notice to parents that they considered testing their child, and the reasons they have elected not to. To do less puts them at major risk of a denial of the IDEA/504 procedural safeguards.
In fact I have a case now that we will take up through the 6th Circuit (if needed) where a District staff met informally (no spec ed teachers, no school psyc, etc.) and decided they did not need to formally eval a diagnosed ADHD/depressed child (were "they knew or should have known" of his disability) prior to permanently expelling him for 2/3 of a year. Given their attorney fees, mine and the real possibility of comp money damages under 504, the overall cost to this District could be well over $100,000.
SUBJECT: Re:locating a copy DATE:97-01-16 20:36:19 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
edlaw home page on the net. Also office of civil rights home page. Just search 504 and education.
SUBJECT: Re:locating a copy DATE:97-01-17 07:24:23 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<How can I obtain copy of the 504 regulations and procedures through the use of my compute ?>>
The following web site has the full test of Section 504 available. It's the law 'straight up' so unless you are versed with reading staight law it might be a little hard to understand. A better thing might be for you to call your nearby Office of Civil rights and ask them to send to you an information packet on Section 504. Also, your district's office is supposed to have written policies and procedures for how Section 504 is handled in your district on file and available for you to have a copy. They should also have a copy of the whole section.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-17 07:25:46 EST FROM: Ratatat
OOps! I fogot to post the address for the web site:
EDLAW Home Page
http://www.access.digex.net/~edlawinc/
SUBJECT: 504 Policy/Procedures DATE:97-01-20 10:45:55 EST FROM: Gineen67
I'm looking for samples of 504 policies and procedures currently being used in public schools. I would appreciate input on how well your procedures are working and any difficulties you have encountered in implementation. Thank you.
SUBJECT: 504 Policies and Procedures DATE:97-01-20 16:14:00 EST FROM: Gmris
Does anyone know of the lawsuit in Virginia concerning a social studies teacher who was personally sued under 504 for not complying with the plan?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-20 22:36:04 EST FROM: Stevepins
If the parents do not want the child labeled sped, a 504 plan can be developed and implemented. They are not allowed to go into the resource room without an IEP. However, the sped teacher can go into the regular classroom and work with that student
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-20 22:43:27 EST FROM: Stevepins
Has a formalized 504 plan been developed for your son? Does the school have a formal diagnosis of ADD/ADHD on file? If a formal diagnosis is on file, the 504 plan should be developed to allow for your son's problems. Any problems, contact the Office of Civil Rights.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-20 22:44:19 EST FROM: Stevepins
Student is eligible for services under 504/
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-20 22:47:18 EST FROM: Stevepins
Joy- school districts get money for identified IDEA students. Depending on the disability, some disabilities may get more money than others.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-20 22:48:47 EST FROM: Stevepins
In some states, ADD/ADHD can be classified under Other Health Impaired.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-20 22:52:23 EST FROM: Stevepins
With regard to expullsion of a sped student, a meeting must be held first to determine if the behavior of the student was caused by the handicapping condition. This was outlined in the Supreme Court landmark case Kaelin vs. Grubbs.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-20 22:54:25 EST FROM: Stevepins
Catholic schools are under no obligation to adhere to fed laws regarding sped or 504.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-21 14:37:50 EST FROM: SusanS29
"In some states, ADD/ADHD can be classified under Other Health Impaired."
Actually that's true in all states, a result of the DOE memorandum of 9/16/91. Many school districts choose to use 504's, but they cannot refuse both IEP and 504 to a child whose school progress is affected by the presence of ADD/ADHD.
SUBJECT: Re:504 Policies and Procedur DATE:97-01-21 17:58:16 EST FROM: Jackterr
Doe v. Withers (W.Va.Cir.Ct.,1993)
High School teacher defied the IEP of a learning disabled student. Rumor has it the teacher is a member of the State Legislature.
SUBJECT: NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-21 20:43:40 EST FROM: SHams
I have a child that is ADHD and as of this week was attending high school. He has an IEP in place which has been totally disregarded (as always this school system has not followed through with it for more than 1 week). A phychologist/interventionist was brought in to help with this wonderful IEP Plan but it still did wake this system up to the fact that they must follow through. One of the most critical things within this IEP was that no one was to embarress my child by yelling at him, etc.. Well to make a long story short within a 1 month time frame this has been broken very severely; one incident involved a teacher saying extremely slanderous remarks to 2 different children in regards to my child and one of the other incidences a teacher make two very humiliating remarks in front of the entire class. Needless to say I have now removed him from this school into the districts alternative high school. What I need to know is do I have a case as far as my childs civil rights are concerned. What I have written here is just a fraction of what has gone on in this school so I wont go into it all. I just dont have it in me anymore to spin my wheels if there is no chance of my being able to take legal action against this school system. Please let me know.
SUBJECT: 504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-21 21:31:30 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
I guess I'm a bit slow, but I don't think my question of 1/12 was unanswered.
Here's the situation:
a child was referred for IDEA qualification, but was denied because the "numbers" weren't right
the classroom teacher (also an ex-special educator) feels the child will fail without specific interventions and wants to have the district investigate qualification for 504
the district strongly discourages teachers from talking to parents regarding the existance of 504
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-21 21:39:49 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
Sorry - hit the "post" before I was through ... where was I? Oh yes.
the district discourages teachers from mentioning 504 plans to parent
What is that non-tenure teacher's recourse? Can she protect herself if later the parents discover the existence of a 504 plan and then try to sue the district? Can that teacher write a letter of dissent and file it in the child's Confidential file to say, "I tried to get the child qualified, but my hands were tied?" I hate to sound paranoid, but some of us out here are TRYING and don't want to get caught up or dragged down into the politics of some districts.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-21 22:05:52 EST FROM: RhoLaren
The school districts do get money for special students. They get about 7 % of the cost from the federal government, you know, the guys with the mandates. The rest comes from the state and the local district. Each state might fund a greater or lesser percentage. You have to know which state you are talking about, and in which catagory.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-22 07:24:46 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<What is that non-tenure teacher's recourse? Can she protect herself if later the parents discover the existence of a 504 plan and then try to sue the district? Can that teacher write a letter of dissent and file it in the child's Confidential file to say, "I tried to get the child qualified, but my hands were tied?" I hate to sound paranoid, but some of us out here are TRYING and don't want to get caught up or dragged down into the politics of some districts.>>
I think that your idea of documentation is sound. However, I don't see how you could put a letter like that in the child's file. I would think rather that your should write a memorandum for the record stating that your administration denied you the right to speak to the parents about their rights (which is illegal on his part), and have it placed in your own personnel file. And/or insist that the principal write a memorandum for the record stating that he forbade you from talking to the parents about their right to request Section 504 protection.
The way the laws read teachers are not to be coerced into silence. I know that's not reality, but that is how the laws read. You are supposed to have protections for speaking up.
Have you asked this principal if he is familiar with the "child find" provision? And, about the provision that has to do with his obligation to inform the parents of their rights?
What is the attitude of the director of Special Education for your district? Could you have a confidential conversation with this person? Ultimately, these districts are responsible at the state level. Could you place a call to the state's office of special education and ask these questions - anonymously?
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-22 07:26:55 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I have a child that is ADHD and as of this week was attending high school. He has an IEP in place which has been totally disregarded >>
Is this IEP written under I.D.E.A. or under Section 504.
Yes, you have recourse to due process - the procedures differ depending on which law your son's education plan was written.
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-22 19:01:15 EST FROM: SHams
The IEP was written under 504, as I stated in my message I was the one who pulled him out of this school due to all the emotional distress it was causing him. Just to add a furthur note, I received a call from the school today telling me they were tranferring his records to the new school and that the only thing that they were including in his transcripts besides grades were a displinary action regarding a fight he had been in. It should not of surprised me that they are choosing not to include all of my coorespondence and the notes on all of the things that they failed to do for him. I did ask them to provide me with a copy of his entire school records, they are checking if they can do that (I know that they have to but I am awaiting their response). I have also been informed that he was never classified as Special Education which I was under the impression that he was. What is the difference in his legal rights if it is IDEA or 504?? Thanks for your help in advance.
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-22 19:42:30 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<It should not of surprised me that they are choosing not to include all of my coorespondence and the notes on all of the things that they failed to do for him. I did ask them to provide me with a copy of his entire school records, they are checking if they can do that (I know that they have to but I am awaiting their response). >>
Is this school in the same district as the other school? All of his files and records should follow him. I think that before they move the files they need to get your consent in the form of a signed release. BTW, there is a federal law called the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act which basically says that you have a right to see and have copies of all of your child's school records - from his cumulative file, his confidential (or special education) file and of his compliance file. Bascially, any piece of paper that is personally identifiable to your son, including computer data, are consider protected under FERPA, and you have the final say-so as to who sees them; nor can they denied you access to, or copies of this information.
<<I have also been informed that he was never classified as Special Education which I was under the impression that he was. What is the difference in his legal rights if it is IDEA or 504??>>
IDEA is a special education law that has very specific categories with specific criteria that children must meet in order to be found eligible for services. Kids with ADD sometimes are categorized under the category of "other health impaired."
A child who has a diagnosed disability such as ADD and does not qualify for one of the specific categories under IDEA, yet who's disability is clearing interferring with their ability to function and learn in the school are then provided with an accommodation plan under Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973. Sometimes these students will need some special education support as well. Schools may not deny children with disabilities special education services under Section 504 merely because a student fails to be eligible for special education services under IDEA.
Section 504 mandates that the schools must meet the needs of students with disabilities in the regular classroom through reasonable accommodations to the maximum extent possible. This law requires that students with disabilities must have the same access to and benefit from the education and programs offered by the school to the same extent as students without disabilities.
Section 504 is a civil rights disability law and is overseen by the Office of Civil Rights. All public schools are obligated to follow this law. According to Section 504 each school district must have written procedures and policies on how they implement the mandates in Section 504 and that this information must be made available to parents upon request. These procedures spell out the steps you are supposed to take when you disagree with the school system. In other words, they are supposed to spell out and inform you of your rights to due process.
Since Section 504 is overseen by the Office of Civil Rights, If I were you I would call them and tell them what has been going on and ask for guidance. If you have good documentation (which it sounds like you do), they will have the records to review to know how they can help you best. If they find the school out of compliance with Section 504 they have the right and power to order them to do whatever it takes for them to be in compliance. OCR also has the right to fine the school should the school prove to be inflexible. Just because you call OCR doesn't not preclude you from also seeking an attorney and seeking suit through private means.
Also, each state is supposed to have a Protection and Advocacy office, as mandated by IDEA. They are there to help you. Usually they are located in each state's capitol. If you can't find your state P&A then call the national office at 1-800-408-9514.
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-23 18:46:23 EST FROM: SHams
Ratatat,
Thank you so much for your input, I will be calling the OCR Office tomorrow. Just as a final note i received a call from the school today and they said they would be unable to show me the file as they have now sent the ENTIRE FILE over to the new school (how did I know this would happen!!). They also told me as far as they knew I was entitled to look at it but not have copies. I cant wait to see what they have sent as I know they definately do not want the new school to see their incompetence. Thanks again!!
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-23 19:09:22 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<They also told me as far as they knew I was entitled to look at it but not have copies.>>
Well, that will be news the the federal government! You not only are entitled to look AND have copies, but if there is anything in the file that you think is inappropriate and does belong in your students file, you can apply to have it expunged.
Call your state's department of education and ask them to send you a copy of the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act. Since it's federal, all states have to follow it. It is, however, incorporated into each states statutes - thus, your state office can provide you with a copy.
Also, see if you can find a book Negotiating the Special Education Maze by Andersen, Chitwood and Heyden, Woodbine Press. FERPA rules are spelled out very clearly in there, along with everything you'd ever need to know about special education laws ans procedures.
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-24 20:49:29 EST FROM: SHams
Ratatat,
Thanks again for your input, at the meeting today he was classified as Special Ed.. (Yeah!!) The new principal is copying his file for me (the attendees from the old school were not real thrilled with this of course). I had to recite the law to them from something I pulled off the Library this morning. Anyway it seemed to go well. I will definately pickup that book you recommended. Thanks again.
SUBJECT: Re:NEED LEGAL ADVISE DATE:97-01-25 00:47:57 EST FROM: Ratatat
< I will definately pickup that book you recommended. Thanks again.>
Good! If you know that book well, you'll know what you need. And... any time.
SUBJECT: What is 504? DATE:97-01-25 22:52:39 EST FROM: Carjoja
I have an autistic son, 1st grade, doing beautifully, after intense home Lovaas program, private school, etc. Just moved recently to IL from AZ, had a lot of problems I won't go into. But, he is doing so well, I could lose the autistic eligibility in the next year or so. Director of Spec. Ed. in my county is involved closely, and when I expressed this concern to him, he told me that my son could still qualify for services (speech and OT, he needs them desperately) under 504. When I asked him what exactly that was (I've heard of it, but know nothing), he told me he'd explain when and if we got there. I can't wait for that. Someone please educate me.
Dawn
SUBJECT: Re:Who determines? DATE:97-01-27 16:34:34 EST FROM: Jackterr
The school evaluation team determines whether or not there is a disability. A Dr. or other qualified (by State law) individual can determine if there is an impairment. Only the school team can determine if the impairment substantially limits a major life activity. (section 104.35)
SUBJECT: Re:What is 504? DATE:97-01-27 16:57:15 EST FROM: Jackterr
Speech is a category of special education. Your son does not need to retain his autistic label to get special education. Speech is the easiest category to qualify for under special education law. Whether he qualifies will depend on his language levels and/or intelligibility.
504 will protect your child from discrimination based on his disability or the record of his disability.
SUBJECT: Re:What is 504? DATE:97-01-27 18:07:50 EST FROM: Ratatat
P.L. 93-112, The Rehabilitation Act of 1973.
This law is important because it addresses discrimination against people with disabilities. The most significant portion of this law is Section 504: Non-Discrimination under Federal Grants.
Section 504 provides individuals with disabilities basic civil rights protections in programs that receive federal financial assistance, such as public schools. The law states that a school may not discriminate against an individual who has, or is perceived to have, a disability.
The law states that individuals with disabilities may not be "excluded from the participation of, or denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination" in any program or activity that receives federal funding.
Under Section 504 the schools are required to evaluate any student who is suspected of having a disability, and provide reasonable accommodations for that student should the student be found to have a disability and is not specifically covered under IDEA. Further, schools may not deny children with disabilities special education services under Section 504 merely because a students fails to be eligible for special education services under IDEA.
It mandates that the school must meet the needs of students with disabilities in the regular classroom through reasonable accommodations to the maximum extent possible. This may include special education support and related services, should they be needed. This law requires that students with disabilities must have access to and benefit from the education and programs offered by the school to the same extent as students without disabilities.
To be eligible for protections under Section 504 an individual must meet the definition of a disabled person which means that they must have an impairment (mental or physical) that substantially limits a major life function, such as learning. Section 504 covers only individuals with disabilities who are not otherwise qualified for other programs such as the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act.
SUBJECT: IDEA Categories DATE:97-01-27 18:30:38 EST FROM: Ratatat
IDEA List of Disabilities
As considered in the Education for All Handicapped Children Act (Public Law 94-142), handicapped children must meet two criteria. The child must have one or more of the disabilities listed in the next section, and he or she must require special education and related services. In other words, not all children who have a disability require special education; many are able to and should attend school without any program modification. Following are the disabilities included in the definition.
Deaf: A hearing impairment so severe that the child cannot understand what is being said with or without a hearing aid.
Deaf-Blind: A combination of hearing and visual impairments causing such severe communication, developmental, and educational problems that the child cannot be accommodated in either a program just for the deaf or one that is specifically for the blind.
Hard of Hearing: A hearing impairment that adversely affects a child's educational performance but is not as severe as deafness.
Mentally Retarded: Both significant subaverage general intellectual functioning and deficits in adaptive behavior. These deficits should have been observable throughout the child's development.
Multiply Handicapped:A combination of impairments, other than deaf-blindness, that causes such severe problems that the child cannot be accommodated in aspecial education program for any one of the impairments.
Orthopedically Impaired: A severe physical disability that adversely affects educational performance. The term includes impairments such as club foot, absence of a limb, cerebral palsy, poliomyelitis, and bone tuberculosis.
Other Health Impaired: Limited strength, vitality, or alertness due to chronic or acute health problems such as rheumatic fever, asthma, hemophilia, and leukemia, which adversely affect the child's educational development.
Seriously Emotionally Disturbed: Schizophrenic children and others who have a marked degree of one or more of the following characteristics, displayed over a long period of time:
An inability to learn that cannot be explained by intellectual, sensory, or health factors.
An inability to build or maintain satisfactory interpersonal relationships.
Inappropriate types of behavior or feelings under normal circumstances.
A general pervasive mood of unhappiness or depression.
A tendency to develop physical symptoms or fears associated with personal or school problems.
This term does not include students who are socially maladjusted, unless they are also seriously emotionally disturbed.
Specific Learning Disability: A disorder affecting the child's understanding or use of spoken or written language. The student's ability to listen, think, speak, read, write, spell, or do mathematical calculations may be affected. Conditions such as perceptual handicaps, brain injury, minimal brain dysfunction, dyslexia, and developmental aphasia are included in this category. This term does NOT include children who have learning problems that are primarily the result of visual, hearing, or motor handicaps; mental retardation; or environmental, cultural or economic disadvantage.
Speech Impaired: A communication disorder such as stuttering or impaired articulation, a language impairment, or a voice impairment that adversely affects a child's educational performance.
Visually Handicapped: A visual impairment that, even with correction, adversely affects a child's educational performance. The term includes both partially seeing and blind children.
SUBJECT: More IDEA Info DATE:97-01-27 18:31:34 EST FROM: Ratatat
HOW MANY CHILDREN IN THE U.S. REQUIRE SPECIAL EDUCATION? Estimates of the proportion of school-aged children requiring special education range from 10% to 15%. The actual number of children under age 19 served in school year 1984-1985 was 4,363,031.
WHAT ARE THE EDUCATIONAL IMPLICATIONS OF DISABILITIES? Children suspected of having a handicap are evaluated by a multidisciplinary team that includes at least one teacher or other specialist with knowledge in the area of the suspected disability.
Following a full and individual evaluation of the child's educational needs, the team determines whether or not the child requires special education and related services. If the evaluation confirms that a child has one or more disabilities and because of the disabilities special education and related services are required, then states and localities must provide a free, appropriate public education for that child.
Public Law 94-142 has fueled a trend toward teaching more exceptional students in the regular classroom. A variety of approaches have been developed to implement this mainstreaming effort, including resource rooms and consultation services by special education teachers. Regular classrooms are being changed to provide for a wider diversity of students and educational services.
For those students with problems too severe to be served in a regular class, provision must be made for the most normal, or least restrictive, setting possible.
Disabilities: An Overview. ERIC Digest #420. Revised.Author: ERIC Clearinghouse on Handicapped and Gifted Children, Reston, Va.
THIS DIGEST WAS CREATED BY ERIC, THE EDUCATIONAL RESOURCES INFORMATION CENTER.FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ERIC, CONTACT ACCESS ERIC 1-800-LET-ERICTEXT
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-01-27 18:53:32 EST FROM: Nlove39414
In Fl some students are placed in hospital/homebound and tutors are provided, but it all is based on a Dr.'s recommendation. It also varies from school to school. I teach in an alternative ed. center for expelled sp. ed. students and serve many who are 504's. We are flexible and network with many agencies. Where are you from?
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-27 22:57:05 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat, I know the principal is not supposed to coerce teachers into not speaking up. But they, the principals, are coerced by the superintendent. And, the teacher will pay with her job. That is the way it is. You are right, of course, but the teacher is not really in a position to do anything about it. It is nice to tell her to stand up for the children. But, who will stand up for her when she gets let go? No one, that is who.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-27 23:03:21 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat,
I read the last few posts from the concerned parents. And, I read and cheered your answers. THESE are the people getting hurt. THESE are the people you fight for every day. THese are NOT the people I am referring to when I suggest changing some provisions of IDEA. These parents need you and others. They do not need to be dragged down. Thank you for helping. Really, we are probably on similar sides of the fence. I am looking at the one little provision of IDEA that makes victims out of the poor student who runs afoul of a child who really need a more structured environment for his and others' sake, and whose parents are in denial.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-28 09:56:19 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Ratatat, I know the principal is not supposed to coerce teachers into not speaking up. But they, the principals, are coerced by the superintendent. And, the teacher will pay with her job. That is the way it is. You are right, of course, but the teacher is not really in a position to do anything about it."
This is true, and I have been in the same position. I concluded that in the long run I would do more good by working within the system than by getting myself canned (although the principal in question tried to get me fired anyway...).
Having been there, I know all too well the risks. BTW the NEA is much maligned, but I think most would agree I'm a good teacher.
The NEA saved this teacher's job and protected me from an out-of-control principal.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-28 09:57:17 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I am looking at the one little provision of IDEA that makes victims out of the poor student who runs afoul of a child who really need a more structured environment for his and others' sake, and whose parents are in denial."
Rho, EVERYONE wants that, most especially the parents of other special education children, who are more likely to be victims than other students.
SUBJECT: Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-01-29 00:39:39 EST FROM: C1R2MEYER
I am in need of advice regarding 504 vs IDEA in regards to my son's needs. As a special educator with a son with ADHD, I have been reluctant to pursue a staffing for my son. However, my son attends a neighborhood fundamental academy which has a zero tolerance policy. Although he's made remarkable strides over the years, we've had two suspensions and I have initiated the testing process because I am afraid the next will be cause for expulsion.
First suspension: Threw a snowball at a girl after she repeatedly called him a "Loser."
Second suspension: Joined another boy in picking up a boy & dropping him after a conflict in soccer. Guess what-the initiator who has a special ed label (not my son) only got one day of suspension while my son got 3 days. ***Please don't get me wrong. My son's behavior is totally unacceptable.
But, he does tend to have problems in unstructured, competitive situations. And before I wrote a letter requesting testing, the school was not very receptive to accomodations on the playground (e.g, reminding my son to tell the aide if problems occured, daily checking in with a teacher, or a recess pt sheet). Now, I think they are becoming more supportive. (Yea!) In the classroom he does fairly well-only because I set up a pt sheet at the beginning of the year and I communicate frequently with teachers). My dilemna-I think the school is trying to circumvent the testing process even though I explicitly noted in my letter that I wanted the testing process started (but we all know how districts put off testing). I think they will tell me that since he is doing fine in the classroom, he doesn't need tested; that we could move right to a 504. However, I am concerned about possible lang. needs. Therefore, maybe the best bet would be to push for a comprehensive eval and IDEA eligibility. Do you think I have a chance of pushing for spec. ed labeling (OHI) considering that he is passing clases and doing fairly well? Can I get them to lean toward IDEA eligibility based on the fact that he's had numerous adaptations and mofications just to keep his head above water these last 3-4 years, and that the only reason he's done well is due to a lot of hard work on my part. Also, his teacher from last year (at a private school) often hand wrote out answers for him and communicated weekly, etc..
Should I compile everything I've done and push for IDEA OR push for 504.I know that the staffing team is supposed to make that decision but I know that this staffing team is behind the times and is still is trying to use the discrepancy formula for identifying ADHD kids.
I'm feeling like all the hard work I've put in is now making things difficult for my son, in a sense penalizing him, potentially keeping him from qualifying for an OHI label. I know for a fact that my son would be grade level skills if he never received the extra support I set him up with. I truly believe that my son wouldn't be where he is now if he didn't receive the support I set up throughout the years.
Yet, I think I might have a difficult time getting him labeled under IDEA unless I come in with a lot of documentation. Or, maybe 504 would be best.
Can playground accomodations be made under 504? Please advise. Thanks for
reading all of this
SUBJECT: Problems with LSAT/CSU systm DATE:97-01-29 05:28:18 EST FROM: To Brooke
Hi,
Please respond by email soon, if you have encountered problems with taking the LSAT (Law School Admissions Test), and/or any problems with California State University. Please let me know of any cases u are aware of, if possible
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-01-29 07:02:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Yet, I think I might have a difficult time getting him labeled under IDEA unless I come in with a lot of documentation. Or, maybe 504 would be best.
Can playground accomodations be made under 504? Please advise. >>
Your question is a bit complicated. My understanding is that when an evaluation is requested there is generally "cause." And the team that reviews the evaluations is the responsible for deciding whether a student is eligible for services under IDEA or 504.
Under Section 504 of the Rehabiliation Act of 1973 the school is required to make appropriate accommodations for your son so that he can have the same "access" to the school's programs as his non-disbled peers.
If you have already requested accommodations for the playground, and they have been refused - I would like that you now have enough "cause" to push for those playground accommodations. Clearly, without the cues and support on the playground your son is in peril of not being able to access the educational programs at all!
As far as the classroom accommodations go, my gut reaction is to get them formalized with a 504 plan. Afterall, it they are official and formal then you have some guarantee that they will follow your child from one year to the next, and you won't have to "re-negotiate" them over each year.
Since the school says that they will pursue testing, and that testing is supposed to be multi-disciplinary, individualized and non-discriminatory, and to be conducted by at least one specialist in your son's disability area, then it should reveal whether or not your son has a language disability.
It sounds like you have sufficient documentation to show that the accommodations are needed so that your child can have equal access. Remember, 504 is a civil rights law designed to prohibit discrimination of the delivery of services (access) to people with disabilities.
Take a look in the Special Education Library for files to download on the Federal laws and on ADD in the schools. Hopefully, you will find lots of helpful information there.
Oh, you didn't say. Is the school your son attending presently a public or private school? If it is private independent school (non-religious), then your son would be protected under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title III about the same way as he would be under 504 in a public school.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-29 07:33:12 EStFROM: RhoLaren
Susan,
I am glad the union went to bat for you. Education would have been the loser had they not, excuse me, the children would have been. That is what people need to realize, principals sometimes want to get rid of the great teachers, such as you, because these teachers DO know what might be better for the child than what the fruit loop wants.
Thank you, gee, two compliments in one day. How will you be able to stand it? You are correct that it is likely that the other IDEA child, probably a fragile one, or a slow one, or a handicapped one, will be picked on by these violent students. All need protection from these very few.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-29 20:16:19 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
Back to my interesting question of the interplay between 504 and IDEA. If student is denied eligibility under SED (emotional impairment) based on the "social misconduct" exception, could the student be eligible for "behavior accomodations" coming out of a 504 meeting based on the fact that they have a mental condition that seriously limits their ability to functio in school.
I know Districts look at this as a second bite at the apple. But is it? Or is it like ADD which may be serious enough for a IDEA based POHI designation, or a 504 accomodation or neither.
Any input, OCR rulings or case law cites will be apporeciated as I really don't want to be the attorney that takes this one up the line (better done by one of the publcally funded advocacy groups)
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-29 20:20:15 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
I have just run into a case where a sub teacher was "blackballed" due to her speaking out for spec ed children in general and her own child in particular.
Stay tuned as this one.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-30 07:06:34 EST FROM: Ratatat
< If student is denied eligibility under SED (emotional impairment) based on the "social misconduct" exception, could the student be eligible for "behavior accomodations" coming out of a 504 meeting based on the fact that they have a mental condition that seriously limits their ability to functio in school.>
If this were my child, I would push for a 504 accommodation plan. Sounds like there are plenty of sound reasons to do so - especially if the child has a solid diagnosis of a severe emotional disorder AND it's interfering with his ability to learn. If the 504 accommodation plan was insufficient after review, I would then go for "other health impaired" under IDEA. All would depend on how well the school handled things in the classroom. If they could accommodate so that the SED problems were not interferring, then a 504 plan would be sufficient. But, if his SED was keeping him from learning with reasonable accommodations - and he's ability to learn would be significantly impacted, then I'd go for OHI under IDEA.
What do you think?
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-30 07:08:14 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I have just run into a case where a sub teacher was "blackballed" due to her speaking out for spec ed children in general and her own child in particular. >>
John, please keep us posted on this. This is a central theme of complaint we hear on the boards. Regular classroom teachers (subs or otherwise) who are given the clear message that they'd better not open their mouths to the parents about their very real concerns about children who are failing to thrive and learn in their classroom.
We know it's illegal, but it seems to be universally a problem.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-30 13:21:08 EST FROM: Jackterr
Whether "social Maladjustment" is a disability would be determined by the cause. If it were caused by a mental impairment then it might be. When dealing with diagnoses from DSM-IV the criteria used to describe those with social maladjustment (i.e. Oppositional Defiant and Conduct Disorder) doesn't refer to any type of mental impairment. No impairment = No disability= No protection under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-01-30 13:29:45 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<doesn't refer to any type of mental impairment.
No impairment = No disability= No protection under 504.>>
One doesn't have to have a "mental" impairment to be protected under Section 504. In fact, asthma is one example of a condition that can impair ones ability to function significantly to the point of disabling. Depends on the degree of symptoms and whether or not they are interferring with functioning.
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-01-30 23:03:12 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Ratatat and BigJohn,
Keep us posted. Ratatat, you are correct. See, we can agree on something. Teachers are threatened to not tell parents things. Of course, many teachers, and I suspect, principals, too, are kept ignorant. I cannot believe the number of teachers who do not know what IDEA stands for. And they are good people. There has been a concerted effort to keep IDEA provisions hidden. Cheaper that way.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-01 12:43:34 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
Understood - this seems to be how a DSM diagnosis crosses over into a special ed eligibility issue. However, I have seen experts state that within the "social misconduct" diagnosis exist other mental impairments including ADD, etc.
Comments?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-01 12:46:42 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
That is the excact issue I am focused on. I know a person with a diagnosed "social maladjustment" will not qualify under the SED catagory of IDEA. However, does the exact same diagnosis and the fact that the socially maladjustment "significantly interefers" with the ability to be educated qualify the person for a 504 behavior modification plan and a manifestation type hearing if the school wishes to expel them?
SUBJECT: Re:504 & Teachers Rights DATE:97-02-01 12:47:33 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
Are not most covil rights keep hidden?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-01 20:41:07 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< However, I have seen experts state that within the "social misconduct" diagnosis exist other mental impairments including ADD, etc.>>
BigJohn, I've got a document here written by Reed Martin in 1995. It's sort of an outline from a talk he gave to a school that had district-wide training mandated after a class action suit was filed against the school because of a failure to follow procedures dealing with IDEA or 504 with kids who have ADHD.
Within this outline there is a section of the kids of student who are likely to be covered by 504. One of the "types" he includes on his list as "likely" to be covered are children with social maladjustment. Interesting.
But, I'm wondering. What is the definition of "socially maladjusted." Wouldn't that be a symptom within a DSM-IV diagnosis? Anybody have any ideas?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-01 20:45:58 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<However, does the exact same diagnosis and the fact that the socially maladjustment "significantly interefers" with the ability to be educated qualify the person for a 504 behavior modification plan and a manifestation type hearing if the school wishes to expel them?>>
If the child has been "officially" diagnosed with social maladjustmentf it's interferring with his learning, then wouldn't that dictate that he NEEDS a behavior modiciation plan that is guaranteed? Wasn't the intent of Congress to have the schools use 504 to make sure that a child with NEEDS such as this had them met - when to do otherwsie would deny the child access to the education? His behavior is a 'barrier' to his learning - therefore adjustments must be made. So, first - this child really does qualify, I would think, for adjustments to his school day that are guaranteed under 504. After that, he's protected from expulsion if his behavior relates to his disability - and it would "force" the hand of the school to make sure that he has a plan that actually works.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-02 01:26:58 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Big John,
Check the IDEA site, I just read the proposed reauthorizations, and I think some of the definitions preclude problems do to family situations. Check up on me, I may have forgotten.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-02 01:27:52 EST FROM: RhoLaren
RaTatat, The DSM, whatever number now, might have socially maladjusted, or, then, again, may not, depends on the type of maladjustment.
Why would an SEM student qualify for 504? It doesn't make sense. He does not have a disability if it doesn't significantly interfere with his educational achievement. And if it can be supported with documentation that his behavior problems are severe, and is of long duration, the IEP team would label that student SED.
A teacher who has dealt with non-Sp. Ed. behavior problem students for a very long time maintains that most of the students he has dealt with do better in a self-contained classrooms (as opposed to changing classes at the end of every period) and being offered many opportunities for special field trips, extra gym, etc.) System administrators in the Reg. Ed. departments, especially at Middle and High School level need to take more responsibility and establish programs to keep our "SEM" students in school. If this means establishing voc. ed. programs for younger students, establishing separate boys' and girls' academies-anything to promote academic success for these students.
I think that there is a vast difference between students who are SED and can't do the work vs. SEM kids who can do the work and choose not to.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-03 18:16:39 EST FROM: Jackterr
Social maladjustment is a term to describe Inappropriate and antisocial behavior that is not caused by a physical or mental impairment. Gang activity, stealing, lying, aggressive toward others for not getting your way, oppositional activities, conduct problems, retaliation, bullying, criminal behaviors, ploting, etc. are social maladjustment. Children with disabilities have a physical OR mental impairment that substantially limits major life activities. With social maladjustment there is no impairment so there is no disability = No protection under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-03 18:39:54 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<Wasn't the intent of Congress to have the schools use 504 to make sure that a child with NEEDS such as this had them met - when to do otherwsie would deny the child access to the education? His behavior is a 'barrier' to his learning - therefore adjustments must be made. So, first - this child really does qualify, I would think, for adjustments to his school day that are guaranteed under 504.>>
Congress had only ONE intention when it passed section 504. "Section 104.1 PURPOSE", states that " ...to eliminate discrimination on the basis of handicap in any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance". This was not a Statue of Liberty law, designed to provide help to everyone who has problems. The term "handicap" has a specific definition in the law. 504 does not cover anyone who does not meet that definition. Part of Section 504, Protects individuals from being labeled with a disability when they don't have one. They are protected from a person saying "of course they are disabled", without ever seeing the person or participating in an evaluation consistent with the requirements of section 104.35 (b).
Many people use the term "disabled" very, very loosely.
There are many things that could interfere with learning that are not caused by a disability. (Lack of school attendence, poor nutrition, lack of supervision, family problems, poor teaching, 10 schools attended by 4th grade, parents don't think education is important, etc.) A lack of progress could be caused by a disability or it could be caused by many other things. Thats what the evaluation is for.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-03 21:10:49 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<With social maladjustment there is no impairment so there is no disability = No protection under 504.>>
But you just described Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Conduct Disorder and Anti-Social Personality Disorder!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-03 21:13:28 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Thats what the evaluation is for.>>
And,so... we go back to the beginning and "child find" and the requirement for a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary evaluation that includes an expert in the area of suspected disability on the team of evaluators.
Something, too few children seem to get from the public schools - even when there is plenty of cause.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-03 22:46:13 EST FROM: Stevepins
What are you hoping to have your son classified as, behavior disorder,. With good academic progress in the classroom, it doesn't sound as if he will be LD. You can probably go OHI, but they may fight you for a bd label. Once your son is classified under IDEA, the school can only suspend for a max of ten total days in the year no matter what the offense or classification. Expulsion of a sped student is nearly impossible. Look up Kaelin vs. Grubbs.
This was a landmark supreme court case regarding expulsion of a sped student. Contact me at stevepins@aol.com if you would like to discuss this further.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-04 06:32:21 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Once your son is classified under IDEA, the school can only suspend for a max of ten total days in the year no matter what the offense or classification. Expulsion of a sped student is nearly impossible. >>
If the school follows the rules and regulations of IDEA properly, the student's placement can be changed away from the "mainstream" setting, if that is what is decided is best for the students by the parents and the school team.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-04 20:25:58 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
I have the full blown definition comparing EI (Mich's version of SED) with "social maladjustment".
I can send it to you - let me know
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-04 22:46:13 EST FROM: MarRigby
With good academic progress in the classroom, there's no disability, period!!! How can he be given any kind of label under IDEA? Save the space in the Sp. Ed. classrooms for the children who need it!
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-05 09:23:09 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<With good academic progress in the classroom, there's no disability, period!>>
I think that the child's ability to learn is being impacted. And the discussion was for a 504 plan, not IDEA - and sort of hypothetical - you know, brainstorming.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-05 13:43:13 EST FROM: Mars000210
hello, I,m only commenting about with good acedemic progress in school there is no disability. My children have always done well in school, even before they were identified LD. You don't have to be failing to have an LD that needs addressing. I as a parent knew my children had a LD but was not going to wait till it impacted on their studies before I sought help. Early intervention can prevent a lot of problems later, like low self esteem or not having a good foundation for future studies, because why you waited to let child fail first they missed stepping stones in knowlege for next level. Think it is a shame we only look at children after they fail, we don't do that with other problems children must deal with such as: only worrying about drug use after they start using.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-05 20:36:38 EST FROM: RhoLaren
Amen
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-05 20:43:38 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
Doesn't a disability have to be present even for a 504 plan, though? If a child is showing good academic progress, there isn't any need for any formal plan.
Obviously, if a parent has concerns, then both the teacher and parent need to monitor the situation and come to grips with it if problems begin to develop. Police can't arrest anyone before a crime takes place. However, if there's reason to believe that a crime will take place, then the police may monitor the site, ahead of time.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-05 21:48:39 EST FROM: R u Niz
Hold it , folks! The school may consider a "C" average "good academic progress." If the kid is gifted, and trying to succeed, then "C's" may not be "good" . If a kid is progressing, but killing himself in the process (and his family) with homework related stress-the progress may not be "good" either.
Some kids with Learning Disabilities compensate well enough to overcome their difficulties-some only mask them. These are the hardest kids (I think) to identify-and often the easiest to help, and the ones whose lives are really changed drastically by Special Ed.
We have to be careful not to allow them to be overlooked. Because they are. And it's not fair. And it's not legal. And I said so. : )--I'm running a fever tonite as a result of working in an unheated, unventilated closet, so I'll apologize for my weak sense of humor.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-06 01:53:32 EST FROM: Mars000210
If you're lucky you live in a district which recognizes that if a child is doing well in school in relation to his grade level but is not doing well in relation to that childs personal potential for acedemic achievement, that the child needs intervention to achieve his fullest potential. LD's need to be recognized in relation to potential not just failure. I am lucky live where this is done.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-06 08:46:48 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Doesn't a disability have to be present even for a 504 plan, though? If a child is showing good academic progress, there isn't any need for any formal plan. >>
The diagnosed disability has to be significantly impairing a major life activity - only one of which is learning - to be eligible for protection under Section 504. One of the major life activities on the list is "breathing." (Well, duh!) But, this becomes important if the child has asthma - even if the asthma is not impacting her learning, it could be impacting her in other ways during the school day so that she could require related services, (access to breathing treatments during the day). In that case, she should have a 504 plan.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-06 08:48:04 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I'm running a fever tonite as a result of working in an unheated, unventilated closet>>
Pray tell - WHY were you working in an unheated, unventilated closet?
SUBJECT: Re: Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-06 08:49:12 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<If you're lucky you live in a district which recognizes that if a child I doing well in school in relation to his grade level but is not doing well in relation to that childs personal potential for acedemic achievement, that the child needs intervention to achieve his fullest potential. LD's need to be recognized in relation to potential not just failure. I am lucky live where this is done. >>
Mars, that's also the law according to the U.S. Dept. of Education.
SUBJECT: 504 and college DATE:97-02-06 10:04:40 EST FROM: Mars000210
I have a question. I have two children one is serviced under 504 and one has IEP. When reading about college my understanding that an active IEP must be in place two years prior to the child entering college to be able to have accomedations made. What about the child with 504 plan. My child has access to all the same accomedations as her sister at her school now , but because it is not on an IEP, does she quialfy for accomedations at the college level. If not how do I address this. Would she have been better servered under an IEP as funding accompanies the child plan rather then with the 504. She quialified for either plan . I in my ignorance chose 504 plan, many years ago.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and college DATE:97-02-06 19:26:58 EST FROM: R u Niz
Ratatat-Do you really want me to tell you why I am working in an unheated, unventilated closet? Shall I add that I am teaching groups of adolescents that don't necessarily practice good hygeine? Or should I spare you?
First, let me embarrass myself. We had a staffing today for a child who is diagnosed as ADD-on Ritalin. No one informed me of this LITTLE detail before I did the LD testing. He came out about 2 years below level in reading ability. Psychologist and I came up with very comperable reading scores-and our scores agreed with his IOWA and IGAP scores (these are the annually taken group tests required in Chicago). WISC II showed average IQ-average everything. No LD profile. I pipe in-shouldn't we complete a 504 plan? I also recommended tutoring and a very good local tutor was suggested to the parent.
Here's the embarassing part: should I have been involved in the writing of the 504 plan or is it appropriate for the psychologist to do this with the counselor? I know I should know this, but this is honestly the first time we have gone to the 504 on a case in which I was involved. I am worried about whether or not modifications will be put in place for this kid. I am also worried about Chicago's new requirement that all 8th graders score at least a 7.0 on there IOWA's in order to graduate. I don't know if kids with a 504 plan have any protection.
I was sent back to my class to teach. I will check the file tomorrow to make sure the 504 was completed.
Got any advice for me? Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-07 00:49:15 EST FROM: C1R2MEYER
Thank you for all your comments and input!
This has been a difficult time-deciding whether to push for 504 or IDEA . While my son is progressing, it has not been without a struggle & superheroic efforts from home. We have decided to have outside testing done in addition to school testing because of the no tolerance policy-"three strikes and you're out" (considering we've had two suspensions recently for fairly minimal events). Personally, I believe our son is progressing but not performing up to his potential. Considering that I have set up many point sheets and previous teachers have made modifications in writing or in time constraints, I believe that there may be possible justification for IDEA (even though a significant discrepancy may not show up in testing). However, 504 may suffice just as well (considering that we now have a better working relationship with the school).
And a special thanks to BigJohn!!!! The letter he suggested I write protesting the misleading wording of the suspension letters (mentioning all the components in FERPA-which I cited numerically after I found this info on the internet) has helped the school rethink the way they wrote up the two suspension letters (considering that they didn't get all the facts or list the aggravating factors). It's amazing how much my son's school wants to work with us now. They are now open to providing a little more structure on the playground and reviewing rules each day. It's sad but true how the "squeaky wheel gets the grease!"
Thanks again for the input!
SUBJECT: Re:504 and college DATE:97-02-07 07:41:25 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<My child has access to all the same accomedations as her sister at her school now , but because it is not on an IEP, does she quialfy for accomedations at the college level. >>
Yes. 504 is a general disabilities civil rights law. As long as you can document that your daughter has been receiving accommodations at the high school level because of a disability, then the colleges will also.
The two year rule is generally having to do with eligibility for taking the ACT, though the high school counselor can write and request an exception if your child can be proven to need the accommodations, like extended time testing, the ACT offers.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and college DATE:97-02-07 07:52:50 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Here's the embarassing part: should I have been involved in the writing of the 504 plan or is it appropriate for the psychologist to do this with the counselor? >>
I can't for the live of me figure any reason why you shouldn't have? Your the person who did the evaluation, and therefore have the added insight of watching the child work while testing him. Also, the recommendations for children with ADD need to be customized to that child. Who better to do that? The psychologist who diagnosed my daughter made recommedations to the school for classroom modifications.
<< I am worried about whether or not modifications will be put in place for this kid. >>
If the child is recommended for a 504, and it's agreed by the school and the parents, then the modifications must be followed. If they are not, the child's civil rights end up violated. Because ADD can significantly interfer with learning, the things that restrict his learning need to be "removed" so that he can have access to learning, same as his non-diabled peers. It's all about access. Your school district is supposed to have written 504 procedures and safeguards available to anyone that asks (it's written into the law that this is to be done). You should be able to get a copy of your districts procedures.
<<I am also worried about Chicago's new requirement that all 8th graders score at least a 7.0 on there IOWA's in order to graduate. I don't know if kids with a 504 plan have any protection. >>
He would be elgible for an accommodation that would provide extended time to complete the test. Also, if the scantron answer sheets pose a problem for this child (I hate all those lines of little bubbles), he might ask for an accommodation to write the answers right in the test booklet and have his test hand scored.
<<First, let me embarrass myself. We had a staffing today for a child who is diagnosed as ADD-on Ritalin. No one informed me of this LITTLE detail before I did the LD testing. He came out about 2 years below level in reading ability. >>
Two questions: why is it embarrassing to have evaluated this child with ADD while he was on his medicine? I'm missing something here, I'm sure.
And, how can a kid with who is two years below level in reading ability NOT qualify for special education support?
BTW, a 504 plan can include specialized tutoring and education support to remediate his reading weakness too. His reading weakness is definitely impairing a major life function, and though he doesn't meet the tight requirements for eligibility under IDEA, he is still handicapped by his low reading. Therefore, he should also be receiving support here under his 504.
Now... tell me about the closet.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and college DATE:97-02-07 14:32:33 EST FROM: R u Niz
Thanks for the information, Ratatat. The embarrassment is that I feel as a professional that I should already have known these answers. The truth is, things in my school are not always done "correctly" and I have to choose my battles carefully. It helps to have somewhere outside of the school to go to for answers.
Now, about the closet...
It is actually a small storage room. It is too small for at least two of my classes, so I also teach some kids in the hall. This is nothing new to special ed in this area. Our school became crowded. I've been teaching in this space for about 5 years. I complain now because an annex was recently added to our school. I know my inappropriate classroom was one of the reasons the school qualified for the addition because my former principal took many Bd. of Ed personnel to my room last year to show them that he needed more space. The local fire dept. was also not pleased. The annex is built, the new principal is thrilled with all the space, the other Sp-Ed teachers have their own rooms with smaller Sp-ed students, but I have been asked to wait until he can re-locate the computer lab (oh, it'll be soon...) then I can have the old computer lab space. I left school at lunchtime today with my third respiratory virus of the school year. I have paid my dues, but the new principal is oblivious. Parents are beginning to notice that I haven't moved yet. I don't want to make a major stink until I've given him about 2 weeks to resolve the problem. This is his first assignment as a principal so I'm trying to be reasonable and patient.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-07 17:38:54 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<But you just described Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Conduct Disorder and Anti-Social Personality Disorder!>>
You are correct. There is no place in the discriptors from the DSM-IV for these disorders that even implies a mental impairment. No physical or mental impairment = No disability. The discriptors in these disorders are types of behaviors, not causes. Not everything listed in DSM-IV, as a disorder, is an impairment. (see 302.3 Transvestic Fetishism etc.)
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-07 17:47:34 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<I think that the child's ability to learn is being impacted. And the discussion was for a 504 plan, not IDEA...>>
Impacted is not the criteria. If a student is getting passing grades and passing on year to year, he or she is benifiting from their placement (see Rowley decision). If they are benefiting they are not substantially limited in the area of learning. No substantial limitation = no disability under 504 or IDEA.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and college DATE:97-02-07 20:44:09 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<The truth is, things in my school are not always done "correctly" and I have to choose my battles carefully.>>
It's the administration's job to make sure their teachers are informed. If you happen to not get good or clear information - or no information at all - should you be asking the administration???
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-07 20:46:31 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< There is no place in the discriptors from the DSM-IV for these disorders that even implies a mental impairment.>>
I know some psychologists and some teachers who would explain how these "behaviors" (as you call them) get very much in the way of a child being able to learn - and that these children MUST be guaranteed a carefully designed, personalized plan to accommodate their needs caused by their disorder so they can learn.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-07 20:56:53 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Impacted is not the criteria. If a student is getting passing grades and passing on year to year, he or she is benifiting from their placement (see Rowley decision). If they are benefiting they are not substantially limited in the area of learning. No substantial limitation = no disability under 504 or IDEA.>
Passing grades is not sufficient. Sorry. See the Letter of Clarification from Thomas Hehir, Director, Office of Special Education Programs, to Ms. Patricia M. Lillie, and Rebecca Felton, Ph.D., Learning Disabilities Association of North Carolina, Inc., dated April 5, 1995.
The special education laws are not about comparing a kid to the average in the classroom, but rather to that child's potential. Benefitting from the placement would have to take into consideration the child's potential for achievement.
We don't know if this child has a high IQ or average IQ - something that would be important to know.
I'm sorry that in my haste of posting on AOL that I used the word impacting so that you could mis-understand it. To me an impact is something that is rather extreme. I should have been more correct and used the words "significantly impairs."
BTW, according to Latham and Latham the definition of a "physical or mental impairment" includes "any mental or psychological disorder, such as mental retardation, organic brain syndrome, emotional or mental illness, and specific learning disabilities."
Wouldn't ODD be considered an emotional disorder?
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 00:05:46 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
<<Doesn't a disability have to be present even for a 504 plan, though? If a child is showing good academic progress, there isn't any need for any formal plan. >>
The parent is the one who said that her child is showing "good academic progress". I assume this means she is working to her ability level. So, why would she qualify for a 504 plan? To me, there is still no justification. There are many children that struggle in school who are not LD or slow learners. Should they all have 504 plans in place?
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 06:17:22 EST FROM: Ratatat
Marilyn,
I'm begging to think that we are all referring back to two different posts!
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 06:18:47 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I'm begging to think >>
That was supposed to be beginning as in starting (as in it's too early to think clearly)
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-08 15:45:09 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
Districts are under the gun according to the 'Child Find' requirements of IDEA to identify children who may be eligibile for special education. Trust me, the $$ from the feds is a tiny portion (usually 5% or less) of what it costs to provide special education services, related aids and supplemental services for special ed eligible services. Districts aren't going to push for eligibility if they don't really see the student's needing it. The great pot of $$$ isn't there!
P
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-08 15:46:23 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
Districts can always take a parent to a due process hearing to obtain permission to test. Its $$$ but it has been done!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-08 15:48:27 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
If the behavior for which expulsion is not directly related to the student's disability, the student can be expelled. Its called a manifestation determination. they are tricky, but there have been kids who are special ed/504 who have been expelled. Services can not be discontinued however; districts must provide enough services to prevent substantial regression.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-08 15:50:19 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
Limit of 25 . . . . sounds heavenly. Must be a state reg, but not a Texas state reg. There is no$$$ for 504. Its an antidiscrimination statue, not an entitlement statute. Special ed funding can not be used for 504. That leaves state and local $$$
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-08 15:52:09 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
to receive 504 protection a group of knowledgeable persons must determine eligibility (mental or physical impairment as well as substantial limitation) and a plan for reasonable accommodations. Doctors diagnosis is not enough nor is it required; we are making educational decisions not medical ones.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 17:33:06 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
I was referring to Mars' post of Feb. 5.
"I,m only commenting about with good acedemic progress in school there is no disability. My children have always done well in school, even before they were identified LD. You don't have to be failing to have an LD that needs addressing. . . ."
Then I asked you why her child would qualify for a 504 plan at this time. And I am assuming that her daughter is working to her ability level vs. her grade level.
Maybe we were referring to two different posts. :)
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 19:56:26 Est FROM: Ratatat
<<Maybe we were referring to two different posts. :)>>
Yep! My brain was thinking about the post concerning the kid with "social maladjustment." :-\
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-08 20:00:42 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Districts are under the gun according to the 'Child Find' requirements of IDEA to identify children who may be eligibile for special education. Trust me, the $$ from the feds is a tiny portion (usually 5% or less) of what it costs to provide special education services, related aids and supplemental services for special ed eligible services. Districts aren't going to push for eligibility if they don't really see the student's needing it.>>
I know the money issues is real, but it doesn't remove the affirmative obligation the school has under child find. The provisions under child find are actually quite fascinating. A portion of the special education buget is supposed to be going toward "publicizing" the search for children who are suspected of having disabilities and might need an evaluation. It's actually suggested that the school district canvas neighborhoods, hold town meetings, place notices in newspaper, etc.. on an annual basis. I can't say that I've ever seen this happen.
So, if and when schools don't take child find seriously, they have left a whole in their responsibilities and become open for complaints and losing due process proceedings.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-08 20:02:46 EST FROM: Mars000210
Hi, yes my children were never failing, but that does not mean that they were not struggling to keep up. My youngest was and has routinely done 4 hours of homework every nite to maintain her grades on the same level as her classmates. My two children worked 10 times as harder to maintain there grades. Yes they were not failing, but they were not playing on the same level playing field to maintain there grades. They both have High IQ's but there work did not reflect how really smart they were, the disability was handicapping their potential,yet as I said they were not failing.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-09 20:14:50 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
Sure we spend $$ on publicizing; I've just sent brochures to area private schools, daycares, doctors, clinics and all the places where parents with kids might be looking for help. Newspaper stuff comes out sporadically; they don't always need our articles for filler, but I've sent them an article or two just in case. We also put articles in the publications that the schools put out. I'm open for suggestions as to where else to put stuff. Parent meetings are held monthly. We haven't had a parent in months, so I've either saturated them or they just arent getting the word. I even stop parents in the grocery! But I'm open to suggestions!
You've really got me confused. In an earlier post you stated that your daughter was showing good academic progress. Then in your last post you state, "My youngest was and has routinely done 4 hours of homework every nite to maintain her grades on the same level as her classmates." Now, is the issue that she is not working to her potential, or that she has to work twice as hard as her classmates to get the good grades she is getting? If she has a high IQ and is only earning Cs, then, there is justification for modifications to her curriculum whether it be a 504 plan or services under IDEA for her deficit areas.
But, if the amount of time spent on homework is the issue, I don't buy the need for a 504 plan. There are many students who spend twice as much time as other students to get the good grades. These students are not necessarily LD or slow learners, either. It's just a fact of life. I can personally attest to this.
Hello, I would love to try and have you understand why children who are not failing should/and do quialfy for a 504 or Iep plan, but to explain here all the details of my children's Ld to try and have you understand why they and other children quialfy for a 504 plan or IEP is not the point. I didn't say they made C's, you did. I will say that they have a severe Ld , but it is now being managed with interventions, without the the 504 and IEP, there progress could not have continued in middle school, or into high school. A child does not have to be failing to need and warrant a 504 plan or IEP. Yes many children stuggle to learn the material that is taught to them everyday in school who do not have an LD. I wish they too could have interventions that would make learning easier for them, but is it fair that some children ( as my older son) never have to put any effort into their school work and make good grades. Fairness is not the issue. Having an Ld that impacts on a child ability to learn to thier potential is the issue. They quialified because their potential was not being met even with good grades. I have two very happy children who like and perform to their potential in school. Foot note/ Where the children you talked of who struggle to learn their lessons doing 4 hours of homework a nite. If they are they should be tested for an Ld.
SUBJECT: 504 DATE:97-02-10 17:09:39 EST FROM: Gineen67
If a CSE determines that a student can be classified as Learning Disabled and be provided services under IDEA (including an IEP), are they legally obligated to persue any type of 504 procedures or accommodation plan? If so please tell me where I can find specific cases dealing with this issue. Thank you!!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-10 22:05:06 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< I even stop parents in the grocery! But I'm open to suggestions!>>
I have one. Want to come to my county?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-10 22:10:20 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<If a CSE determines that a student can be classified as Learning Disabled and be provided services under IDEA (including an IEP), are they legally obligated to persue any type of 504 procedures or accommodation plan?>>
A student receives services under either IDEA (for a specific disability as listed in the categories), or under Section 504 (for a disability that impairs their ability to access the education).
The types of accommodations that are most commonly seen on a 504 Plan can (and should) be included on the Individualized Education Plan in the appropriate "spots." Some can be under the Goals and Objectives, related services, or on an additional page entitled, "Accommodations and Modifications." Most IEP formats allow for this.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-11 00:32:08 EST FROM: MarRigby
Mars:
"I didn't say they made C's, you did."
I didn't say that your child made C's. What I said was that if she had a high IQ and was only making Cs, then that would demonstrate a need for services and/or modifications to her curriculum. It was just an example. You didn't state what her grades were, and it's definitely not anyone's business to ask.
"Where the children you talked of who struggle to learn their lessons doing 4 hours of homework a nite. If they are they should be tested for an Ld."
That should definitely raise a flag, but again, there would probably be additional indicators that would suggest the need for study and evaluation. Some kids just work very slowly. I was one of them!
"They quialified because their potential was not being met even with good grades. I have two very happy children who like and perform to their potential in school." If they have good grades, then what potential is not being met?
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-11 06:55:21 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<That should definitely raise a flag, but again, there would probably be additional indicators that would suggest the need for study and evaluation.
Some kids just work very slowly. I was one of them! >>
Remember, ANY red flag that a kid "sends up" is sufficient to cause enough concern that the "child find" provision should be followed. There is almost always a reason why a child is struggling with school wook - either at school and/or at home. We are obligated to pursue an investigation as to why.
SUBJECT: High IQ and LD (1) DATE:97-02-11 06:59:47 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<"They quialified because their potential was not being met even with good grades. I have two very happy children who like and perform to their potential in school." If they have good grades, then what potential is not being met?>>
The following information about a letter from the U.S. Dept. of Education should clarify this. It's an area that clearly causes confusion for a number of people because it doesn't appear to be as clean-cut as a "traditional" LD child in Special Education. (I have to post this letter in two parts.)
Advocacy Memo: For Your Information #1 - 96
Denial of Eligibility Because of Gifted Intellectual Ability and/or Lack of Failure
The U.S. Department of Education, in a written response to questions from the Learning Disabilities Association of North Carolina, stated that "...each child who is evaluated for a suspected learning disability must be measured against his or her own expected performance, and not against some arbitrary general standard."
As required by Part B regulation (34 CFR ºº300.540-300.543), the multidisciplinary evaluation team is responsible for determining if a severe discrepancy exists between a student's ability and performance. Under Part B of IDEA and Part B regulations there are no "exclusions based on intelligence level in determining eligibility." In other words, a student cannot be excluded from consideration of eligibility for special education services solely on the basis of a high IQ; no child's IQ can be too high for that child to be considered for eligibility for special education services-even an intellectually gifted student may be considered for eligibility for special education.
In order to qualify as having a specific learning disability, the student, according to Part B of IDEA and Part B regulations, must have a severe discrepancy between achievement and intellectual ability "in one of more of the following areas: oral expression, listening comprehension, written expression, basic reading skill, reading comprehension, mathematics calculation, or mathematics reasoning."
Intellectual ability is determined by administration of intelligence or IQ test(s). Achievement is determined by administration of tests designed to measure basic reading skill and comprehension, math computational and reasoning skills, and the ability of the child to express his/her ideas in writing. Oral expression and listening comprehension are generally determined by giving speech and language tests. Scores earned on achievement and IQ tests are then compared.
In order to be eligible for special education services, the multidisciplinary team must determine if the student has an "impairment" or disability which "adversely affects educational performance" 34 CFR º300.7 (b) (1) - (b) (13). In a letter to William M. Lybarger, Ed.D., dated September 14, 1990, the Department of Education described "educational performance" as different for each child, "determined on an individual basis," and "includ(ing) non-academic and academic skills." In other words, a student with suspected learning disabilities must need special education and related services in order to qualify for those services.
A multidisciplinary team may find a child has a specific learning disability if "the child does not achieve commensurate with his or her age and ability levels in one or more of the areas listed in paragraph (a) (2) of this section, when provided with learning experiences appropriate for the child's age and ability levels ..." 34 CFR º300.541 (a) (1).
The Department of Education, in its letter to LDA of North Carolina, wrote that it is "generally" appropriate for the multidisciplinary team to include in its written report (to determine eligibility) information regarding "outside or extra" instructional help or support which "may indicate the child's current educational achievements reflects the service augmentation, not what the child's achievement would be without such help."
Such information should be considered by the team in deciding if the child has "a severe discrepancy between achievement and ability that is not correctable without special education and related services." If, for example, a student with an IQ of 125 and significantly lower achievement scores maintains passing or even exemplary grades, the team should consider whether or not the student achieves only because of special assistance or support.
If the student receives no special help, the multidisciplinary team might conclude that student would not need special education. If, on the other hand, the student has tutoring several times a week, works for three to five hours each night on homework with parental assistance, and must have extra time to complete tests in order to pass or maintain a certain grade level, that student might be considered to have a "specific learning disability." His/her grades may reflect all the assistance the student is getting rather than the student's actual achievement level.
(Reference: Letter of Clarification from Thomas Hehir, Director, Office of Special Education Programs, to Ms. Patricia M. Lillie, and Rebecca Felton, Ph.D., Learning Disabilities Association of North Carolina, Inc., dated April 5, 1995.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-11 09:09:58 EST FROM: Mars000210
Sorry I was really tired when I posted the last time and what was written hit a nerve. I don't always make myself very clear. This medium is hard for me as I too am dygraphic and dysnomic. I had a case of foot in writing disease, I think in that post. It is very hard when a child has a hidden disability to understand why they need services or to quialfy for them. That is why there is such strigante testing and criteria to obtain these services. Yes my two younger children do well , they work very hard. There were tutors, but we worked under the whim of each teacher how much they believed there was a disability vs. being lazy or not smart. Some years we were lucky some years we were not. This was not an easy process to be put through. I have an older daughter who was not diagnosed until 11the grade, at that time the testing showed a high IQ, but she was not able to write any faster then a third grader. School was frustrating for her ,she missed a lot of knowledge because according the to the testing she was trying to memorize everything said in class to keep up. She never finished a test, no time extensions, couldn't complete work in the classroom setting and had to hope she remmembed what was said durring class. My younger girls were lucky to have our awarness of the possiblity of a disability so when it reared it's head we were prepared to step in and help them. A child shouldn't have to beat their head against a brick wall to learn. Making good grades is not the issue at least for me. To instill a love of learning has always been my foucus and sometimes that requires that a formal diagnosis and interventions are done as early as possible to prevent a child from not having access to the information that being presented.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-11 20:34:25 EST FROM: MarRigby
Mars:
Now that you explain what the specific issues are for your daughters, I understand why accomodations are necessary. I really don't think you provided this info. before.
"Making good grades is not the issue at least for me. To instill a love of learning has always been my foucus and sometimes that requires that a formal diagnosis and interventions are done as early as possible to prevent a child from not having access to the information that being presented."
Here's where I disagree with you. Decisions are made based on evaluations from a multidisciplinary team of experts, anecdotal reports from the classroom, and of course input from the parent, because the parent is an equal member of the PPT (Planning and Placement Team). A student is not going to qualify who is already receiving grades that are commensurate with his/her ability level. Just to promote the love of learning would not be a justification for any formal plan.
But, and here is where Ratatat's post is so helpful, if it can be substantiated that the only way that the student has been able to earn these high grades was with the help of tutoring, or even some cooperating teachers who have been modifying the curriculum without a formal plan, then there is justification for a 504 plan and/or Sp. Ed. services.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:High IQ and LD (2) DATE:97-02-11 20:43:55 EST FROM: MarRigby
Ratatat:
Thank you very much for this info. It is very helpful. It's interesting that the lower end of the spectrum was not addressed in the letter. How about the student who for all intensive purposes is a "slow learner", (both verbal and performance IQ falls between 75 and 85), but only receives a 55 SS in Math? During a recent triennial review, I kept this student as an LD student, because I felt that she could at least be able to reach an achievement that was more in line with her potential.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-11 21:55:41 EST FROM: Mars000210
Just a question. how do you know if a child is achieving to their potential. Most kids never have testing to see what there potential really is. So a child who may struggle in elementary school may be thought to be just a slow learner ( labeled), but in middle and high school falls apart because no one took the time to think may not be the slow learner may have LD. The other half of that is the student who is struggling and making good grades that are within the norm for his age or grade level but is also not working to his/her potentia and may also fall apart in the comming years. The only point I was trying to make is that a child doesn't have to be failing in school to have an LD that needs to be addressed. Grades are not the only indicator that a child is having a problem that needs addressing. I heard through the years , but they make good grades why are you complaining, why would you want your child labled, they are working to their potential. They were not.
SUBJECT: Re: Need Advice/Pros & ConsHe DATE:97-02-12 00:22:43 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<A student is not going to qualify who is already receiving grades that are commensurate with his/her ability level.>>
I'm pretty sure that she's talking about a child with high abilities and average achivement (because of learning disabilities). This is just the kind of kid who can have the "love of learning" squished out of them if they don't get some appropriate supports to access the education.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & ConsH DATE:97-02-12 00:25:53 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Just a question. how do you know if a child is achieving to their potential. Most kids never have testing to see what there potential really is.>>
Any time a child is struggling too much with an age appropriate, appropriately taught curriculum, they should be evaluated for disabilities. This is what "child find" is all about.
SUBJECT: Re:Need Advice/Pros & Cons DATE:97-02-12 09:08:27 EST FROM: Roskzalex
I understand that 504 is a regular ed. issue and IDEA is Special Ed. In our school, the counselor, principal, parent formulate 504 and it is carried out by regular ed. teachers. We have completed a 504 at the end of a staffing where the child didn't qualify under IDEA. The concern we have is from the next years teachers who don't think that they need to follow accomodations from either IEP or 504.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-12 18:34:26 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<I know some psychologists and some teachers who would explain how these "behaviors" (as you call them) get very much in the way of a child being able to learn >>
There are many, many things that get in the way of learning. However, the thing that must get in the way of learning for there to be a disability, is a physical or mental impairment. No physical or mental impairment = no disability = no protection under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-12 18:42:07 EST FROM: Jackterr
As of this Feb. 97, the 4th circuit court ruled that services may be stopped if behavior is not caused by the disability. (Virginia Dept. of Ed. v Riley ;
25 IDELR ____ .)
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-12 18:49:19 EST FROM: Jackterr
The IEP is the accommodation plan. All Special Education kids with IEPs are 504. 504 protects them from discrimination. If supplemental aids and services are necessary in the regular classroom for the spec. ed. student to participate, these services must be stated on the IEP.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-12 19:55:22 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< However, the thing that must get in the way of learning for there to be a disability, is a physical or mental impairment. No physical or mental impairment = no disability = no protection under 504.>>
Have your seen the latest "definition" on what defined impairment from the EEOC for clarification on Title I questions? I'll look it up and type it out. Since ADA is supposed to consistent with 504 and within it's own text, I would assume that this definition becomes very important for the whole of ADA and 504 as well.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-02-12 19:56:36 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<As of this Feb. 97, the 4th circuit court ruled that services may be stopped if behavior is not caused by the disability. (Virginia Dept. of Ed. vRiley ; 25 IDELR ____ .)>>
True. But, as you know, most decision give the benefit of the doubt to the disabled child, unless it is very, very clear to be otherwise. This must have been a clear cut case. Can you elaborate on the interpretation from IDELR?
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-02-12 19:57:59 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<All Special Education kids with IEPs are 504. >>
Jack, I understand this - but it's awfully complicated for most of our readers here. We do try to keep it simpler that that. <grin>
SUBJECT: LAW UPDATE DATE:97-02-12 21:05:43 EST FROM: Ratatat
LAW UPDATE: EEOC GUIDANCE DEFINING DISABILITY
The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) has responsibility for enforcing Title II (employment) of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). On March 15, 1995, the EEOC released ADA guidance Compliance Manual Section 902: Definition of the Term Disability to EEOC investigators and the public. The guidance provides instruction for determing whether a person has a disability under the ADA and includes information of interest to persons with ADD or learning disabilities. It adds to the list of major life activities (which has included learning and working) mental and emotional processes, such as thinking, concentrating and interacting with other people. It provides that the investigator, in determining whether a person has a disability under the ADA, should not consider the availability of mitigating measures that may lessen a person's disability, such as medication and auxilliary aids.
SUBJECT: Son qualified for 504 DATE:97-02-25 15:41:39 EST FROM: AHayes1741
Hello! My son, Tim, has qualified for the 504. The thing is, he has mild Cerebral Palsy and now, in the middle of the school year, the teacher and I have both been noticing that he's not really progressing. I had updated all of the info. at the beginning of the school year. Tim is going to be tested as soon as his turn comes. Also, we are checking with his Neurologist about his learning probs. Only recently, was it defined clearly that the symptoms Tim was left with from viral encephalitis, was mild CP. I really need some help, wondering where to turn, what to do next???? Please reply to my email at AHayes1741. Thank you.
SUBJECT: Re:Son qualified for 504 DATE:97-02-27 21:44:25 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Tim, has qualified for the 504. The thing is, he has mild Cerebral Palsy and now, in the middle of the school year, thee teacher and I have both bee noticing that he's not really progressing.>>
Can you give us some idea of what accommodations (academic and otherwise) are included on his 504 plan? Can you pinpoint which ones are working and which ones are not? Can you devise some strategies/accommodations/adjustments to the program that would support him better?
And, how is he not progressing? Is he truly at the same level of performance he was at the beginning of the year?
What do you mean that he will be tested when it's his turn? Tested for what?
Sorry for all the questions, but the more specific the information given the better chance of providing better ideas.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-03-01 19:56:44 EST FROM: Kijagg
My understanding is that ADD students who are not in special education can qualify for 504 if they have a diagnosed medical condition.
SUBJECT: Can parents help with 504's DATE:97-03-02 23:33:25 EST FROM: TKelton
Our school has just started implementing the 504 (I know its been around for 20yrs)and they are starting at the high school level. When they are talking with parents they are finding out alot of kids have been lost and alot of tears from parents are flooding the school. I would like to be the parent part of the 504 team in helping parents first know about the law and how it effects their child, I thought maybe this would help the barrier between parent and school. When the parent was educated then they would be better prepared for writing a plan for their child. I don't know if the school would buy this its my own idea. What are the qualifications for a 504 coordinator? Thanks. Mom of 3 spec.ed. boys.
SUBJECT: Re:Can parents help with 504 DATE:97-03-03 07:21:20 EST FROM: Ratatat
<< What are the qualifications for a 504 coordinator? >>
I would suggest that your pursue getting some definitive information from four sources:
The Office of Civil Rights which oversees Section 504 - any information they give you would be "empirical." I know they have information packets available about 504 - and may have training packets for school districts for a 504 Coordinator.
Your state's Office of Protection and Advocacy. Each state is mandated to have a P&A. They have advocacy training materials, and programs. In my state, their 504 manual is excellent.
Your state's Office of Special Education. Ultimately, since they are responsible for their LEAs following the federal rules and regulations, they should have the materials you seek.
And, finally, NICHY - National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities. This is an EXCELLENT resource for all sorts of information on all disabilities and the laws that effect them. I would call them and ask if they have anything. I do know that they have some wonderful materials of starting advocacy groups. I wouldn't be surprised if they have the materials you see too. Their number if 1-900-695-0285
SUBJECT: advocate DATE:97-03-03 08:10:02 EST FROM: Mars000210
Parents Place has an advocate training program. You can write them at E-mail parplace@aol.com. It is only offered at certain times of the year, but it is worth a call.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-03-03 18:09:01 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<My understanding is that ADD students who are not in special education can qualify for 504 if they have a diagnosed medical condition.>>
Just about any physical or mental impairment that is diagnosed could qualify for protection under 504, IF the second part of the definition of "Handicapped Person" is met. That being, that the physical or mental impairment "substantially limits" a major life activity, such as learning. If both parts of the definition have been identified in an evaluation, conducted by the school, the student is protected from discrimination by Section 504. If there is no substantial limitation of a major life activity then there is no disability and therefore, no protection under 504.
SUBJECT: Re:504 DATE:97-03-03 18:17:48 EST FROM: Jackterr
>><<All Special Education kids with IEPs are 504. >><<
<<Jack, I understand this - but it's awfully complicated for most of our readers here. We do try to keep it simpler that that. <grin> >>
We need to make sure that when we uncomplicate things that the new version is accurate. 504 is truely one simple law. It protects individuals with HANDICAPPS from being DISCRIMINATED against, based on his or her disability.
The simplefied versions have a tendency to send parents into battle with unloaded weapons. This can be a set up for them and the schools.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-03-03 18:42:15 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<As of this Feb. 97, the 4th circuit court ruled that services may be stopped if behavior is not caused by the disability. (Virginia Dept. of Ed. V Riley ; 25 IDELR ____ .)>>
<<True. But, as you know, most decision give the benefit of the doubt to the disabled child, unless it is very, very clear to be otherwise. This must have been a clear cut case. Can you elaborate on the interpretation from IDELR?>>
Most decisions, that don't get overturned, look at what the law requires. The judicial decisions that try to do "good things for kids" are usually overturned. The legislature is where laws are made and it is also the place to make additions and deletions.
The Fourth Circuit (Full Court) overruled the 3 judge panel from their own circuit, 11 to 2 that, IDEA does not require States to provide handicapped students FAPE regardless of their conduct.
IDEA provides a right to public education, but that right can be forfeited by violent behavior.
SUBJECT: Update on can parents help DATE:97-03-03 21:46:03 EST FROM: TKelton
Thank you so much for your information Ratatat. I contacted the resources you gave me and they were successful. For Illinois the Office of Civil Rights number is 312 886-8434.
That number was like searching for hidden treasure. Also I contacted NICHY for training information and they are sending me a free catalog. Also, for future knowledge there are no guidelines for appointing a 504 coordinator. It is whoever the facility designates.
SUBJECT: Nondiscrimination Disclaimer DATE:97-03-04 23:33:29 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
Must the nondiscrimination disclaimer that all school districts have, contain a statement which specifically mentions the availability of 504 protection? Ours just states that they will not discriminate against individuals with handicaps . . .etc.
SUBJECT: Re:Nondiscrimination Disclai DATE:97-03-05 06:29:31 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Must the nondiscrimination disclaimer that all school districts have, contain a statement which specifically mentions the availability of 504 protection? >>
That's a good question. I quick call to the OCR would answer it. But, I'm going to guess that for schools, because of the "child find" provisions would probably have to say that safeguards exist and services can be accessed.
It seems to me that the 4th Circuit case stands for more than that. No services for "any" misconduct that is not related (via "manifestation" hearing) to the disability. This goes against OSEP and OCR interpretations. Possible US Supreme Court case??
SUBJECT: Re:Nondiscrimination Disclai DATE:97-03-05 21:41:09 EST FROM: BigJohnEsq
I have found that many District's may reference that they do not discriminate, the smarter ones reference 504 by name. More importantly, the law specifically requires a grievance procedure and the publishing annually of the name, address, etc. of the 504 Compliance person to contact if there is a problem.
I have had some sucess at due process hearings on winning 504 notice and related issues solely on the basis that the parent had no way to file a grievance as the name of the person responsible was not published.
SUBJECT: ADD Diagnosis-Who does it DATE:97-03-09 23:36:01 EST FROM: SEATURTL8
Who are the legally qualified persons in determining add/adhd diagnosis. The typical school professional is certified and not licensed. Having previously worked in mental health it seems a great liability to be assigning a label of add to students through an SST or staffing. A paper from the Office of Civil Rights states "Diagnosis is a medical term""Districts are required to determine if an individual is educationally handicapped". "Who is qualified to diagnose ADHD? Any professional who is qualified to use the DSM-IV and is knowledgeable about ADHD". I am very uncomfortable with our districts school based policy of evaluating ADD and its inherant liability for me as a professional (Guidance Counselor). It appears they are saving money by not using outside licensed people, and putting unnecessary liability on the staff involved, who may not be qualified. Onset before the age of seven---No ADD after elementary school! Any info appreciated....particularly legal minds!!!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-10 10:15:48 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Who are the legally qualified persons in determining add/adhd diagnosis.>>
It's almost not so much who what what that person knows. I happen to know some general internists who are extremely knowledgable about ADD. Then, I've bumped into child psychiatrist who just didn't believe it it as a treatable disorder. I know social workers who I'd trust completely, and psychologist I wouldn't put on a leash and walk around the block.
I suggest that you use Keyword: Online Psych and go into their ADD boards. Under the "Ask Dr. ADD" section is a very good explanation of what a good (comprehensive) evaluation should include - and why.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-12 16:46:33 EST FROM: SEATURTL8
thanks ratatat, I guess my question is when I,m subpoena'd (? No english teacher replies!!), what does the law say
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-12 18:43:20 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<I guess my question is when I,m subpoena'd (? No english teacher replies!!), what does the law say>>
Maybe if you told me why you want to know? As long as you meet the state's criteria to evaluate (same as the school's evaluation staff), you are "legal." Is that what you want to know?
SUBJECT: Information please DATE:97-03-13 12:28:50 EST FROM: Kellyrick
I need information on how children get placed in an LD setting originally and how the classifications work.
If the eligibility commitee says that there is a "specific" learning disability, don't they have to name it? (i.e. dyslexia, developmental aphasia...etc.)
If they test and find a child eligible for special education, what do they do then? Just place them in special ed or do they try and narrow what the disability is?
If they do not test for specific learning disabilities, how do they determine what is an "appropriate" education? Also, if they have never been tested for specifics, how do they determine the least restrictive environment...even if they later catch up and score high enough to not need services.
For example, what if a child is dyslexic, is identified by the state as being learning disabled, but is never tested specifically for dyslexia, how can that child be taught appropriately in order to learn the material presented. As well, what if he is able to compensate for this dyslexia later in life and scores high enough on the tests to render him ineligible for special ed? Is it the least restrictive environment to just say he is no longer eligible......he still has dyslexia, so therefore, while he may be able to be mainstreamed because he can compensate for it, what happens a few years later when things get tougher? Never having been identified properly, he still is not getting what he needs and now won't because he has been rendered ineligible for services. One more thing...because he was only identified as having a reading deficit, and dyslexia affects everything....how can the regular ed teacher know what to look for to teach him or to grade his papers fairly?
I live in Chesapeake, VA and they tell me that they do not do tests for dyslexia, yet they tell me my middle son has a specific learning disability. They can not give me a specific name for what his learning disability is. I read that whole law cover to cover and it seemed pretty black and white to me that if they have a specific learning disability, then it has a name. If they don't or one can't be found, then they qualify under "other health impaired" or "seriously emotionally disturbed".
Help!
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-13 14:55:12 EST FROM: SusanS29
"<<I guess my question is when I,m subpoena'd (? No english teacher replies!!), what does the law say>>
Maybe if you told me why you want to know? As long as you meet the state's criteria to evaluate (same as the school's evaluation staff), you are "legal." Is that what you want to know?"
Thank you Ratatat I was wondering that too! It's hard to keep the old messages in mind enough to understand the reference.
What's the nature of the lawsuit, and why would you be subpoenaed-that is, what information do they feel you can contribute?
I have a friend who held an administrative position in a school district. She was on the interview committee one year for prospective teachers. They turned down one teacher because after the interview she felt she wasn't knowledgeable enough for the job.
The woman sued, arguing that there were other reasons she was turned down that had nothing to do with competence.
My friend isn't the type that would have done that, and she was confident that her decision as part of that committee was the correct one. For instance, this person called the "Woodcock Johnson" the "Masters & Johnson..." one such answer could have been nerves of course but there were lots of problems with this person's level of knowledte (I just remember that example because it's kind of humorous).
My friend says the best single thing she did when she had to testify was to rehearse herself-she got a friend to help her-so she wouldn't get "rattled" on the stand. The school district lawyers didn't "coach" her or anything like that, but she did kind of "role play" the experience before going in.
By the way, the school district did win that lawsuit; the judgment was that they were within their rights not to hire the person and that their reasons were plausible and convincing.
SUBJECT: Re:Information Please DATE:97-03-13 14:58:54 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I need information on how children get placed in an LD setting originally and how the classifications work. "
Kelly it depends on a couple of things-what state you live in, as each state sets its own standards, and how the district has their services organized.
Districts organize their services in various ways; the great majority of students will fit well into most district's systems, but the district is required to modify their approach if their previous system doesn't suit a child's needs.
So for example, if a district has made an executive decision to go to 100% inclusion, but as it turns out that doesn't suit a couple of students, and those students truly need a special class, the district must organize a special class.
Your first step would be to find out how your state defines learning disabilities. This is probably something the school counselor can tell you in a phone call. Write the information down and post it here. I'll be glad to explain how a distrcit might go about finding out if a child met those standards, and I'm sure others would be willing to also.
Otherwise I could write five different ways depending on your state, but you'd be no better off than you were before, because you wouldn't know which one of the five your state uses.
Make sense? :)
SUBJECT: Re:Information Please DATE:97-03-13 15:00:07 EST FROM: SusanS29
"I live in Chesapeake, VA and they tell me that they do not do tests for dyslexia, yet they tell me my middle son has a specific learning disability."
Ohh... Kelly did you post that in another folder? I think I explained it- it's the difference between "psychological" vocabulary and "beaurocratic" vocabulary.
Read that post and then post again with any new questions it brings to mind (it probably will raise new questions... such is life-smile).
SUBJECT: Re: ADD/504 protection? DATE:97-03-14 17:30:30 EST FROM: Jackterr
<<It seems to me that the 4th Circuit case stands for more than that. No services for "any" misconduct that is not related (via "manifestation" hearing) to the disability. This goes against OSEP and OCR interpretations. Possible US Supreme Court case??>>
This is against OSEP interpretation, however, OCR has held that students may be expelled for non-disability caused behavior without continuing services. This stance just says that it is not discrimination to cease services. Most likely the Supreme Court will rule on it. It is unlikely that the present court would raise the IDEA requirement to a constitutional level requirement.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-14 17:48:38 EST FROM: Jackterr
<< A paper from the Office of Civil Rights states "Diagnosis is a medical term""Districts are required to determine if an individual is educationally handicapped".>>
Schools are charged with the responsibility to identify all handicapped students. They are not required to make medical diagnoses such as ADHD, heart condition, cancer. etc. These are impairments that might qualify as disabilities if the effects of the impairment have been determined by evaluation at the school, as substantially limiting a major life activity. When a school becomes aware of a physical or mental impairment, that knowledge will ofter lead to suspecting the existence of a disability. When the school suspects that there might be a disability they are required to evaluate. If a student displays the effects of an impairment the school may initiate an evaluation under IDEA without having a medical diagnosis. The school may make the 13 diagnosis under IDEA, independent of the medical community.
Who is qualified to make the diagnosis of ADHD?? Maybe the publishers of the " driven like a motor" test, or the "often loses things..." evaluation.
SUBJECT: Re: ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-15 09:32:44 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Who is qualified to make the diagnosis of ADHD?? >>
An evaluation and diagnosis for ADD can be made by a general physician, pediatrician, psychologist, psychiatrist, or neurologist using the correct battery of evaluation information and tools.
A prescription for the medical part of the treatment can only be written by an M.D.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-18 11:26:29 EST FROM: QueenRakim
My daughter is 8 and in third grade in public school and has never been diagnosed with anything. She had a stuttering problem and will be released from speech therapy in April. She is having a very difficult time this year keeping up with the mounds of classwork that her teacher gives. The teacher says she is a daydreamer and disorganized. She gets a's & b's but with a great deal of help from us as far as organization and keeping her ontrack after school to complete her unfinished classwork. Her speech teacher told me that her daughter is the same way and she suggests possibly that she has undifferentiated ADD. She has chosen not to have her daughter on drugs or classified and suggested to me many ways to help her. We're doing it and it's helping. For example, I am going into school every day at the end of the day to make sure my daughter has all of her homework papers and books she needs that evening. My problem is that I feel I want her teacher, who has a preponderance for massive quantities of paperwork and required coloring of everything to allow a little extra time occasionally(at least once or twice a month) to complete work. My daughter receives voice training every two weeks and it is a 2 hour ordeal, so that day is a major stress out with all the work on top of the lesson. I spoke to a friend who teaches special ed in a neighboring community and she suggested that I look into the 504 plan. She said it is not a classification, but it would require the teacher to do some extra things and allow for more completion time that would/could help my daughter in the mainstream classroom. So one question is, does a child have to be diagnosed with a learning disability in order to qualify for this? The diagnosis is so vague...I have friends who have been through it, and the diagnosis seems completely subjective. Could/would it help her in the classroom? Would it make her academic day shorter? On some days she is working right up to bedtime completing what I view as busywork...things like required coloring and holiday puzzle worksheets that are either ridiculously easy for her or so absurdly hard that my 5th grade academically gifted and talented son cannot do them. Anyway, there are probably many of the things I've touched on in previous posts...I'll read them when I can.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-18 18:20:55 EST FROM: Ratatat
<So one question is, does a child have to be diagnosed with a learning disability in order to qualify for this?>
Section 504 of the Rehabiliation Act of 1973 is a civil right disabilities act. Before a student can be found eligible for an accommodation plan they must have a condition that is significantly impacting their ability to learn. So, yes... you'd have to have a proper diagnosis which should only be reached through a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary evaluation of your whole child in each of her environments.
SUBJECT: Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-18 20:41:20 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
As a 10-year special ed teacher-turned 5th grade classroom teacher, I just finished sitting through a review of testing done on a diagnosed ADHD 5th grade student to see if he would qualify for IDEA assistance. Just as I thought, his scores weren't enough to qualify him. In the quiet, one-on-one testing situation, his true academic abilities came through. However, in the classroom, he cannot sit still, daydreams, doesn't complete homework, and won't produce anything that requires pencil to paper. I have modified the quantity of work and the environment as much as possible in the classroom, but he isn't doing well. He is currently on 45 total mg. of Ritalin given 3x a day and his doctor told his mother that he was the worst case he had seen in his years of practice.
When the team saw he didn't qualify by the numbers, I suggested that perhaps this child would be a classic candidate for a 504 plan. They all kind of looked at each other (our district has never written one), and quickly tabled the discussion because they had another case behind mine. Now I hear that I will be asked to justify why we should write such a plan for this child if we are already modifying his curriculum in the classroom. Any suggestions for some great come-backs?
SUBJECT: Re:Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-18 21:39:33 EST FROM: Ratatat
<<Now I hear that I will be asked to justify why we should write such a plan for this child if we are already modifying his curriculum in the classroom. Any suggestions for some great come-backs?>>
Because he NEEDS it.
Because he needs to have an official plan with written accommodations that will FOLLOW him into the next grade with another teacher.
Because the Federal Civil Rights Law - Section 504 - says that the school has an affirmative obligation to remove barriers that restrict a students access to the education the school teachs.
Because under Section 504 they have an affirmative obligation under the "child find" provision to find and meet the needs of every child who has a condition that is disabling - and ADHD can be disabling, making access to learning difficult.
For a child with an invivible disablity those accommodations are are necessary as a ramp is for a child with a visible, phsycial disability who needs a wheelchairl.
That help?
SUBJECT: Re:Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-18 23:54:23 EST FROM: SusanS29
" Now I hear that I will be asked to justify why we should write such a plan for this child if we are already modifying his curriculum in the classroom."
To document what you're doing and make sure it gets done in the future.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-19 08:58:00 EST FROM: QueenRakim
Is this diagnosis at my expense? Is it done through the child study team?
Must it be accompanied by a teacher recommendation?
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-19 17:32:29 EST FROM: Ratatat
<Is this diagnosis at my expense? Is it done through the child study team? Must it be accompanied by a teacher recommendation?>
The "child find" provision in both federal IDEA and Section 504 lay the responsibility for evaluating for conditions that effect learning at the foot of the schools, at their expense. However, a parent with concerns can request that the school evaluate their child. Best to do this in writing. Once requested a "timeline" begins and the schools are required to respond in a timely manner. You can contact your state's Office of Special Education to get the rules for your state on timelines, testing and such.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-20 12:32:08 EST FROM: QueenRakim
Thank you
SUBJECT: Re:Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-21 12:44:24 EST FROM: CoTeachNet
Thanks to you and Susan for your responses, I can now "step up to the plate" with confidence at our next meeting so we can get the kind of help this child needs to succeed!
SUBJECT: Re:Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-21 22:33:13 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Thanks to you and Susan for your responses, I can now "step up to the plate" with confidence at our next meeting so we can get the kind of help this child needs to succeed!"
Oh what a nice thing to say! Good luck, and I hope you'll let us know how it goes.
SUBJECT: Re:Justifying a 504 Referral DATE:97-03-22 11:16:24 EST FROM: KErnhart
add and adhd can also be covered as other health impaired. Under idea . contact parent resource center in your state. If you dont know the number you can contact Harvey liebergott at 202-205-9082. Let him know what your state your in.
SUBJECT: 504 and Resource Room DATE:97-03-22 14:31:12 EST FROM: Gmris
Is a 504 student eligible for placement in a resource room? Student has been declassified and will have a 504 plan written.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and Resource Room DATE:97-03-22 20:45:49 EST FROM: Ratatat
<Is a 504 student eligible for placement in a resource room? Student has been declassified and will have a 504 plan written.>
The 504 plan must meet his needs. If he needs support from the resource room, then yes... he gets support from the resource room. 504 allows for accommodations in the regular classroom or special education and related services. Many children need support from a resource room to be able to participate equally when in the regular classroom.
SUBJECT: 504 eligibility in college DATE:97-03-22 23:50:59 EST FROM: Reedntchr
Our son was on a 504 in High School for ADD and now is in college. Is the 504 available at a state funded college or is it only for the kids in high school and below. Please email me if you have information. Thanks for you information and time. Reedntchr.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-23 10:17:00 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
I've hear Jose Martin, an attorney in Texas, describe the "educational diagnosis" in terms that were rmost helpful. Schools don't need a medical diagnosis; what they need is a good working definition/description and understanding of what ADD is. That may be an uphill climb, but most are getting better. Then they need to collect data about how the child functions in a variety of settings; classroom, home, etc. When you look at the data and the characteristics of ADD you can usually determine whether or not the kids has characteristics of ADD. We use a rating scale that is reliable/valid too. If the characteristics of ADD are there and appear to substantially limit participation in school activities (not just academics) we say that. "Fred appears to have characteristics of ADD. These appear to be substantially limiting participation in . . . " and that should be enough for 504. Remember, 504 calls for evidence of a mental or physical impairment which substantially limits participation in a major life activity. Evidence is not necessarily a diagnosis.
And a diagnosis from a physician is not, in and of itself, enough for 504 protection. That second prong, the substantial limitation, has to be backed up by the data collected too.
Problem is, making sure that your data is adequate.
SUBJECT: Re:504 eligibility in colleg DATE:97-03-23 10:18:27 EST FROM: Ms Puggley
504 is available to anyone in a school where public funding is used.
SUBJECT: Re: 504 eligibility in college DATE:97-03-23 21:24:56 EST FROM: Ratatat
< Is the 504 available at a state funded college or is it only for the kids in high school and below. Please email me if you have information. >
Virtually every college in this country receives some sort of money with federal origins. Thus, they are all obligated to provide accommodations under 504. Have your son check with the office that provides services for disabled students and find out what kind of documentation they need to begin accommodations. Often colleges are better at, and more agreeable about, providing accommodations that high schools.
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does DATE:97-03-23 21:31:26 EST FROM: Ratatat
<Remember, 504 calls for evidence of a mental or physical impairment which substantially limits participation in a major life activity. Evidence is not necessarily a diagnosis.>
At a workshop by Matthew Cohen he said that under 504 one must have a diagnosed condition that results in a substantial limitation . . .
Though a medical diagnosis, in and of itself, is not necessarily sufficient to receive services under 504, it is part of the eligibility steps. Or, so I understand.
Also, noting the characteristics that are interferring and saying a student appears to have the characteristics of ADD worries me. Why? Because there are other problems, medical, neurological and affective, which can exhibit the characteristics of ADD.
It's essential, therefore, that the "child find" provision is always followed, as written under IDEA, and that each child receives a thorough, multi-disciplinary evaluation so that the "characteristics" can be attributed to the appropriate problem. This is what is called a differential diagnosis. It's vital.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and Resource Room DATE:97-03-23 22:16:00 EST FROM: Gmris
Thanks for your response. Is the 504 student permitted to take a spot in a resource room if there is no space or to take the place that a classified student would be entitled to?
SUBJECT: Re:High IQ and LD (2) DATE:97-03-24 01:20:58 EST FROM: Thuvia
Thank you for posting this information. As a parent of a child with a CAPD (auditory sequencing) it was great to be able to read (and re-read) your posts to fully grasp and understand this info. We went through a nightmare for 2 yrs trying to get our son tested at his previous school. He had been in SLH for 2 yrs due to auditory descrimination & after they released him from the program we were told he "just needed to practice his reading". Amazing though a kid with an IQ of 128 was reading at a second grade level. The part of your post about the severe discrepancy and how much outside assistance he was receiving sounded like it could have been written for us. I was helping him 3-4hrs per night on homework, he had after school tutoring (at new school before testing was completed) he was also in Title One. His previous school dumped Title One for 3rd - 5th grade. Amazing isn't it? Now our 7yr old son is showing signs of same problem our 11 yr old has. (auditory sequencing) The school has jumped in and the SST meeting is set up to decide how to procede. I'm so lucky to have found this school. Unfortunately we must move for one year to Alabama for my husband to attend school. No doubt, if there is a problem, we will go with IEP in hand. I'm actively searching out schools with good programs there and that will determine where we live. Sorry to go on. Your information is so helpful and I've gained a lot of knowledge from reading the Special Education BB. Havn't posted much, but read a lot.
Thanks again!! Thuvia
SUBJECT: Re:504 and Resource Room DATE:97-03-24 10:46:57 EST FROM: Ratatat
<Is the 504 student permitted to take a spot iin a resource room if there I no space or to take the place that a classified student would be entitled to?>
I know that resource rooms have ratios and limits, etc. But, the school is supposed to be meeting the needs of the child - not the child meeting the programming limits of the school.
I don't thinkt here should be an issues of bumping one child from the help they need for another child who needs help.
IDEA and 504 are pretty clear in what they define as a Freed Appropriate Public Education. The child's needs are supposed to be met.
SUBJECT: Re:High IQ and LD (2) DATE:97-03-24 10:49:04 EST FROM: Ratatat
<Unfortunately we must move for one year to Alabama for my husband to attend school. No doubt, if there is a problem, we will go with IEP in hand. I'm actively searching out schools with good programs there and that will determine where we live.>
You might want to contact NICHCY at 1-800-695-0285. This is the National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities. They have lots of wonderful (free) information. Ask for the information about how you transfer the IEP in a move, and for a resource list for the State of Alabama. Additionally, they may have some articles and information specific to your areas of concern and your kids' learning difficulties.
SUBJECT: Re:High IQ and LD (2) DATE:97-03-25 01:25:00 EST FROM: Thuvia
Thanks so much for the information on the National Information Center! Your time and help on the BB is much appreciated. <G> Thuvia
SUBJECT: Re:ADD Diagnosis-Who does I DATE:97-03-25 15:03:50 EST FROM: SusanS29
"And a diagnosis from a physician is not, in and of itself, enough for 504 protection. That second prong, the substantial limitation, has to be backed up by the data collected too. Problem is, making sure that your data is adequate. "
Usually the school has done a great job of this, with suspensions, write-ups, repeatedly lowering grades and grading off on behavior (report cards) for missing and incomplete work, retentions or attempts to retain, etc.
If the child's education is hampered by ADD, there will be no trouble finding the documentation to show it. This documentation will also clearly show that it's school-related, and that school-based interventions are needed as well as whatever else is being done.
That part is a cake walk for those who need it.
SUBJECT: Re:504 and Resource Room DATE:97-03-25 15:05:17 EST FROM: SusanS29
"Thanks for your response. Is the 504 student permitted to take a spot in a resource room if there is no space or to take the place that a classified student would be entitled to?"
The special education program isn't entitled to take this sort of stand. They must be adequately staffed and supplied for all students they serve. If there "isn't enough space" they're required by law to solve that problem.
SUBJECT: Re this board DATE:97-03-27 18:41:19 EST FROM: AV715
WOW
I just found this board and read the whole thing- printed a lot of it too.
What a service you people provide in answering these questions and directing people through the maze. THANKS !!!!!!!!!
